UKH

https://www.facebook.com/dmmclimbing/photos/a.570491846331936.1073741828.12...


Found this on DMM's facebook page and unlike normally when they have new kit in the pipeline had heard nothing about them! anyone heard anything or got any thoughts, i wondered if they would release a range of micro cams but based on this image it would appear like a full new range of cams is coming.

In reply to jmills94:

looks similar tech to the dragons lobes. I'm guessing its a single axel version of those.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Well new camolots are on the way too.

https://instagram.com/p/47rtwTuKLT/

In reply to CurlyStevo:


No, no, it's definitely a custom wheel rim.

In reply to Tom F Harding:

maybe - I guess another option would be a narrower headwidth version of the dragons with more normalised lob width across the range and overall lighter.

The overlap of the cams in that pic does look a bit too large for a single axel cam right enough and the lobes look possibly closer together than dragons? Will be very interesting to see what happens tomorrow!

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Aren't those called Demons or am I missing something?

In reply to More-On:
Demons have the lobes from the 4CU but with a similar stem setup to the dragons. Quite nice bits of kit I thought, shame about the wide head width.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Cheers - I was missing something then!

In reply to jmills94:



I was also hoping for micro-cams, but from the colour scheme, and counting the number of "panels" - this cam appears to be the same size approximately as a Dragon 4.

In reply to Tom F Harding:

I'm sure I read somewhere earlier today that BD are bringing out a new range of cams too. Bu no amount of googling will produce a hit

In reply to goose299:
look up ^
and here
http://new.pitchengine.com/pitches/1e993082-1ce6-42b1-8d38-42dd4fcd9523

D

In reply to jmills94:

Looking at the cut out shape in the lobes it looks to me like twin axle cam, so a version of the dragon cam just with the edge milled off to give better contact with the rock.

In reply to gethin_allen:
Yeah good spot. Most likely a dual axel cam.

However I think it will be more of an update than milling the edge off the lobes.

I don't think the dragon cams have been out long enough for an all out replacement so it would seem logical its some kind of new take on the cams. I'm still going for narrow head width.

In reply to jmills94:

It seems to new cam season. Motolius are updating their master cam as well.

http://www.splitterchoss.com/2015/01/29/outdoor-retailer-winter-2015-climbi...

In reply to Tom F Harding:

is it me or are those master cam lower trigger cables on the wrong orientation (both for narrowness of small sizes and durability of horizontal placements) ?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I have had issues with my mastercams. They seem very easily battered up and have started rusting! i appreciate that they are not anodized but not good all the same

In reply to CurlyStevo: taken a look at the patent application for these DMM cams and the cam lobes have been machined post forging. Theres been a general consensus amongst designers that the forged lobes provided less grip, certainly where i'm working at anyrate. Also the pigs nostril sling thumb press has been replaced with a thumbloop and sling arrangement. Bit difficult to explain, but it basically means there will be two wires rather than one in the body, terminated at the head end, but also in an aluminium piece at the thumbloop providing a proper thumbloop rather than the press, and also making the sling captive and run over a wide stiff radius.

In reply to beardy mike:
Even better find

I guess it won't make much odds for my well worn in dragons I never used the thumb loop on my camalots (when I had them) so I guess the new thumbloop arrangement wouldn't interest me much either? (if I understood you correctly that it will now be something like that)

In reply to beardy mike:

Seems odd that they've changed the design of the sling terminal as they spent ages on the non-thumb loop design to sort out the problem with the slings.
I wonder if there will be any cheap dragons on the market after the new ones hit the shops.

In reply to gethin_allen:

Yes, but the US market is far larger than the British market and they whinge constantly on their forums about how the lack of a thumb loop is a disadvantage for that bizarre "aid climbing" thing that they do.

In reply to CurlyStevo: it is a thumbloop with an alu piece at the apex of the thumbloop with a loop within this piece to make the sling captive. Got to be said, to me it looks half decent, and very much reminds me of solutions I was working on a while ago, pretty much in parallel... Be interesting to see it in the flesh... Got to be said the tech needs to take a side shift, which it appears BD have been working on, just like all the main competitors will be...

In reply to CurlyStevo: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=2015...

In reply to jmills94:

Press release is now out.

http://dmmclimbing.com/documents/highlights-2015-2016.pdf

In reply to Tom F Harding:

Just new lobes then, still the awful dragon nose sling arrangement thing.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Interestingly, I saw a photo of Dragons & Camalots side by side making out that a knot in the sling provides a higher clip in point than the Camalot, because the stem's shorter!

In reply to galpinos:

the sling arrangement thing on the DMM Dragon is what makes the sling better than that on the Camalots,
now if the new Camalots had an extendible sling like the dragons

In reply to gd303uk:

If the dragons had a decent extendable sling system then, yes. However, the dragon feels less comfy in my hand/to use and the sling is faffy so my presence is the cleaner more user friendly Camalot design and an an extender when required.

In reply to galpinos:

but the sling on the dragons is decent, it works perfectly well and can eliminate the need for a QD.
are you saying that to clip an extendible sling is more faffy than having to select a qd and clip it into the short sling?
i have both sets of Dragons and Camalots , as well as a few other cams , tech friends, dmm 4cu and metolious master cams, and find the sling arrangement on the dragons to be excellent, each to their own

In reply to gd303uk:

I also find the dragons sling arrangement great and have no need for a heavier thumb loop.

In reply to gd303uk:

Yep, I'd prefer to place a Camalot and extend with a QuickDraw than place a Dragon and faff with the sling. I don't like the thumb pad on the dragon and find them a lot less ergonomic. They're useless in winter with gloves. My climbing partner has Dragons, I have Camalots and even taking into account familiarity (one tends to prefer one's own rack) I will do anything to avoid using them. I'd prefer my old 4CUs and even Tech Friends to Dragons.

In reply to galpinos:
fair enough, i use and like them both( when the sun shines, i have never had to use them with gloves i am too soft for winter ), i like the DMM 4cu also, they have a very similar sling arrangement to the dragons D

They look ok (they're on the DMM website now) but nothing revolutionary, wider lobes is probably a good shout but the bare alloy finish and pattern on the lobe heads designed for 'better performance in slick rock' is perhaps a bit gimmicky. A couple of outings on grit soon gave mine a bare alloy finish and will likely erase the new 'TripleGrip surface area'. Still they need to keep thing fresh I suppose and there's not much you can to an already brilliant cam!!

In reply to Tigger:

http://dmmclimbing.com/documents/highlights-2015-2016.pdf

In reply to Tigger:

Yeah the lobe width on the baby dragons looked correct to scale up from for me, some of the smaller proper dragons did seem a little narrow, so a logical choice there.....

In reply to jmills94:

The Preview PDF mentions that the thumb press has changed.


I would guess the photos we are seeing are not the finished product. It's a shame they didn't go down the way of the patent linked to above. Maybe the additional production cost and complexity made this a non starter.

It would be nice if someone from DMM came along to answer a few questions.

In reply to jmills94:

Wild Country also have some new cams in the pipeline - thumb loop, extendable sling, double axle, bare faces etc.
We've been playing with them at Outside for a while, and they're blooming lovely, but were sworn to secrecy until Friedrichschafen!
http://www.outside.co.uk/latest/news/The-Very-Best-of-Friends

In reply to CurlyStevo:


"Nasim Eshqi is even more unique..." Grrr....

In reply to Tom F Harding:

The patent was just an application. It's possible that it was rejected on the basis of being too similar to Black Diamond's designs.

In reply to simon kimber:
they do look nice - are the pictures telling a true story with the nice compact head widths (ok maybe not as narrow as the new camalot X4 but narrower than the dragons and camalot C4?)

In reply to simon kimber:


Looks like WC have nailed it.

- Double axle - check
- Thumb loop - check
- Doubled sling - check
- Machined faces - check

In reply to simon kimber:

they do look almost perfect, looks like my wallet is going to take a hiding this year, and the shops will be full of gear heads pulling triggers and talking about which cam is best for each climb, i apologise in advance

In reply to jmills94:

Haven't bought WC stuff for a long time but those cams do look good.

I'd be intrigued to know how they solved the doubled sling - thumb loop weakness issue and also where they're made.

In reply to jezb1:

I wouldn't be surprised if they are made by DMM.

In reply to jezb1:


I had a play with these at a trade show last week. They look very smart. The hollow axle is clever way to save weight and they have slightly wider cam lobes than the original Dragons.

Wild Country haven't sold the thumb loop weakness issue. They have just excepted the cams will be a couple of kn weaker. I think this means the cams will be 12kn rather than 14kn which, as their rep pointed out, is plenty strong enough.

It would be interesting to see which will sell best out of all the new cams available.

Tom

In reply to Tom F Harding:

Looks like BD have done away with the steel stem and axle carrier for some sort of HMPE cord in a plastic jacket and an alloy forging at the top. I wonder how they've terminated the cord?

jk

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Good info Tom, cheers.

In reply to Tom F Harding:


Agreed. It's been a while since I've chosen WC over DMM but with these cams and the superlight offsets they'll be getting my money again.

In reply to jkarran:

According to BD's own bumf, linked by gd303uk above, its a "patent-pending continuously looped Dyneema® core to replace the cable stem"...

In reply to More-On:


Interesting, thanks. I guess that explains the woven appearance if it's one thin cord woven into a multi-turn loop. It's slippery stuff but enough turns and enough weaving and you'd end up with something that would break long before it slipped.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

I was looking at that and wondering what it was made of. Having a textile component as an intrinsic part of the cam, does this create a problem when it comes to the lifetime of the cam? you can't exactly just have it re-sung I guess when it gets old. Although, if it's covered in a UV resistant sheath what would be the working lifetime of a dyneema sling?

In reply to gethin_allen:

Theoretically, dyneema doesn't degrade with UV.

In reply to Casa Alfredino:

Excellent. Always keen to clip fixed gear.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I've just compared them with the current Camalot C4 and Dragon Cams (pics at the bottom of the page here: http://goo.gl/2LFPFc ). The heads are a bit wider than Dragons (understandable as the new Friends have considerably thicker lobes), and either the same or ever so slightly wider than Camalots. I don't think this really matters in these larger sizes anyway.

Bear in mind, these are prototypes I have in my hand. Also, they really need to be compared side by side to the forthcoming DMM and BD cams, not the current ones!

In reply to Casa Alfredino:



Hmm...

You may want to read "Effects of sunshine UV irradiation on the tensile properties and structure of ultrahigh molecular weight polyethylene fiber" ( J Appl Polym Sci 89: 2757–2763, 2003) if you can.

DOI: 10.1002/app.12448

The abstract pretty much says it all:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/app.12448/abstract

From the paper though,
"The UHMWPE fiber used in this study was the
Dyneema SK65"

"After sunshine-simulated UV beam irradiation, the
tenacity, break extension, and work to break of the
UHMWPE fibers were conspicuously decreased ...."

In reply to Dan_S:
Can I counter that with this: http://www.colligomarine.com/docs/respecttherope/RTRDyn1.pdf

A word about UV resistance
Studies and lab testing have indicated that Dyneema fibers will initially see some
damage from UV rays but then become relatively opaque to UV. This means that
the material forms a protective layer and the rate of UV damage goes down to
almost nothing after a short time in the sun. This is another reason to give
yourself a large strength factor of safety.

http://www.marlowropes.com/dyneema.html

UV Resistant: Dyneema® has very good resistance to photo degradation, maintaining its performance when exposed to UV light

http://www.neropes.com/PR/RopeRetirementQuestions.pdf

6. What effect does overexposure to UV rays have on a rope? Does it matter whether
the rope is made of nylon or dyneema? Will the effects vary between static and dynamic
ropses? Some specialists say exposure to UV rays does not damage nylon ropes
because nylon is UV-stabilized. Therefore, only the color will be lost. Is this true?

All synthetic fibers are susceptible to UV degradation, the degree of degradation will depend on
the fiber type, if the fiber has been UV-stabilized, and the exposure time. Damage is typically
exhibited in fiber embitterment resulting in the loss of tensile strength. The initial symptoms
would include such factors as color fading and shrinkage of the surface layer.
Polyester experiences very little UV degradation, Nylon (polyamide) has moderate UV
degradation, were as polyethylene & polypropylenes can experience significant UV degradation,
while para-aramids & meta-aramids have poor UV stability.
Specifically regarding nylon, over exposure to UV can cause a chemical reaction in the
molecular structure which breaks down the primary bonds in the Nylon polymer reducing the
strength of the fiber. UV stabilizers in higher quality nylons (such as normally used in life
safety ropes) will reduce but not totally eliminate the impact of UV degradation on the fiber.
Polypropylenes and Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene (UHWPE) have a much greater
rate of UV degradation. However the premium grades of UHMWP such as Dyneema also have
UV stabilizers which improve the UV performance of that fiber.

Note: as you can surmise from the above discussion on UV resistance, a static rope manufactured
with a polyester cover over a nylon core would have less UV degradation than a similar static
rope that has a nylon cover & core.

In reply to Casa Alfredino:

I would be more concerned with internal abrasion caused by sharp edges or pinching of the cord. By wrapping the whole cord in plastic it would become very hard to spot any problems.

In reply to Tom F Harding: not going to disagree with that!...

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

The Wild Country cams use a thicker cable than the BD ones, which should mean the thumb loop deformation is less. They needed to use a thicker cable as I believe BD have a patent on the swage-in-the-head design. It's also why the stem is slightly longer on a WC cam.

In reply to drysori: the stem is actually made of two pieces and the swaged at the thumb loop. The lower piece, ie between the cam head and thumb loop is thicker than that of the thumbloop, as it simply doesn't need to be as thick (load is shared) and the thicker wire does not bend into a tight loop. The rating is also achieved by using a wide dyneema, not skinny like others. The extra length statement is partially true - although a lot of work has been done this time to eliminate that length, and to make sure the units feel better in the hand than all the others... As the review says, lots of little tweaks but ones which do make them really nice...

Of the current generation of cams I always found the WC Helium friends to feel the least trustworthy compared to BD and DMM - the surface of the lobes seems slippery; the lobes move a lot more easily and feel less robust. I realise this is probably all psychological and they are probably just as safe as the BD and DMM cams.

The Camalots feel super robust which is probably while they're currently my favourite. The extendable sling on Dragons is great though, so it WC can have the sling and feel robust then perhaps I'll change my mind about their cams... I am a fan of the long stem sometimes though.

In reply to jmills94:
Thank god a company is going to release a camalot with thumb loop and extendable slings. Now you can have the perfect rack of cams. Fixe Alien Evos with extendable slings from Black to Yellow and WC cams from Purple to Grey. I hope WC will bring the colours inline with BD and DMM.

In reply to Aigen: the colours are in line. The sizes have been tweaked as with cams lots and dragons there is a hole in the overlap of the sizes... Can't for the life of me remember where, i think it was red to yellow? Would have to look at my spready to confirm. But basically range AND overlap has been adjusted to be totally homogeneous throughout... And yes they feel solid...