FAO climbing shop dudes re: shoe sizes

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 Mutl3y 27 Jun 2015
Alright, just a general FYI for people who work in climbing shops. I have become aware of yet another case of "climbing punter" being sold on the "pro sho size" myth.

Punters and everyday regular Joes do not need to get shoes five sizes or even three sizes too small for them...they need shoes that fit. That's it!

Do the shoes fit you ok? Could you wear them all day pottering around on VSs on Stanage or vdiffs in Wales? Very good then, that'll be £39.99 or whatever.

These guys do not need shoes too painful to wear....and neither does 99% of everyone else either!

/rant

Anyone else come across this breed of shop worker? Intent on selling everyone + dog shoes that are too small?
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 Mark Eddy 27 Jun 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:

Yes come across this many times. Although i've found the good quality climbing shops (Needle Sports & The Climbers Shop being examples) will offer far more useful advice and ask relevant questions during the selection process.
Buy cheap from the big chains and get what you pay for. Invest a little extra with an independent and reap the rewards.
ultrabumbly 27 Jun 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:

I've not had this happen for years and in fact I have had the opposite advice when I wanted to go more than half a size tight.
OP Mutl3y 27 Jun 2015
In reply to A Mountain Journey:

Can't say how long ago these were, but yeah the better shops don't try to force tiny shoes on you I guess.

True story, but I did once genuinely see a shop dude telling some punter (a few years ago) that they "would never climb E2 in comfy shoes".... I daren't tell him that Brown's Eliminate has been climbed in wellies....it would have been like the time Neo took the red pill and stuff.

Sadly, very few punters even know what Brown's Eliminate is much less quote that little factoid back at shop dudes....
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OP Mutl3y 27 Jun 2015
In reply to ultrabumbly:

Now that does sound unusual - good to hear though!
 girlymonkey 27 Jun 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:

Yes, I come across people quite regularly who have been told this. Generally most people learn by experience and don't buy too small next time, but it is an expensive painful experience in the meantime.
OP Mutl3y 27 Jun 2015
In reply to girlymonkey:

Painful. Exactly. My partner yesterday he couldn't even wear his shoes for the walk down the crag. My shoes....I could wear them all day every day no problem. They are comfy as you like. Diffs, severed, very severes, V0, V1...V5, V6 they seen em all.
 JoshOvki 27 Jun 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:

When I was working in an outdoor shop I tend to find the opposite. The punters would come in wanting shoes that were mega tight, and no matter how many times you told them they should be snug but not painful they would not listen. Same as people wanting to buy their first pair of climbing shoes on not wanting to try anything else bar the latest sportiva because that is what their mates wear and they climb 6b!
Aonach 28 Jun 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:
Your Katanas are too big.
 Offwidth 28 Jun 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:

In the old days I was known to take the beginner and their stupid shoes back to shops our club used a lot and give the manager an earful. Usually it was some unfortunate misunderstanding between a badly-trained assistant (the sort who gets an erection over the technical descriptions on the box) in combination with clueless beginner. We hear on posts like this that this is uncommon practice now but still a significant percentage of climbers on my local indoor walls have the wrong shoes (ie lower grade folk with shoes painful after a few minutes of use). The shops are full of shoes designed for the small minority of high performers. Over tight or badly fitting shoes (you know this because they hurt) will damage your feet and lead to major problems later in life:do not do it. The industry is very culpable in this and really needs to get its act together.
ultrabumbly 28 Jun 2015
In reply to Offwidth:

aye difference was that with older shoes eventually they would become bearable/comfortable as they used to bag out and bag out forever. You could possibly just make them tight enough up until they died by lacing under your arch... curiously this would be about the time they would finally stop staining your feet and any other footwear you wore funny colours . The myth persisted for a long time though after shoe design stopped this being the norm. I shod myself quite cheaply for limestone for a couple of years due to people selling on Sportiva Taos as many could never get them past the agony stage and I have 7 1/2 feet. Most people who bought shoes frequently twigged to the fact that S&M sessions with your feet in plastic bags inside the shoe stopped being ever necessary around the time 5.10s and evolv type designs became the norm. Those that got through shoes less quickly carried on for a few years going too tight.

Aside from the tightness I have nearly always seen people that mainly climb indoors go for a way too technical shoe. Most, if not all, indoor climbing hasn't required that sort of fit since bendecrete type bouldering walls were the norm. I used to quite happily train in really comfortable shoes that had had a resole that ballsed the shoe completely in terms of a close fit. Sometimes they would be so loose that I could wear socks with them happily. They were also ideal for wearing all day for low grade mutipitch stuff.
cb294 28 Jun 2015
In reply to Aonach:

Katanas? Not too big for long...

CB
OP Mutl3y 28 Jun 2015
In reply to cb294:

> Katanas? Not too big for long...


Absolutely right! They used to wear out so fast. I thought that was just how climbing shoes were until I got some 510s a few years ago.....still wearing them now!
 remus Global Crag Moderator 28 Jun 2015
In reply to Offwidth:

As always I think there is a balance to be struck. At the end of the day climbing shoes fit very differently to almost any other kind of shoe. A correctly fitting climbing shoe needs to be snug against the end of your toes, and for someone not used to that sort of fit they will find it a little painful. If you tell them climbing shoes should be completely pain free then they'll end up with something floppy and useless (which I'm turn means they'll struggle to learn decent footwork).

I suspect a lot of climbers are de-sensitised to the low level pain that you get with any correctly fitting shoe.
 neuromancer 29 Jun 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:

To offer the counter argument: you are peddling snobbery.

Has Browns eliminate been climbed in wellies? Yes. Does this have any relevance to the jobbing average climber? No. Could Alex megos climb right wall in flip flops? Probably.

Will the vs leader feel more secure and able in a properly fitted pair of say... Vapour v's than in a bridgedale-sock-inside red chilli jokers? Yes.
OP Mutl3y 29 Jun 2015
In reply to neuromancer:

For the avoidance of doubt I wasn't recommending beginners attempt anything in wellies. Just that shoes don't have to be particularly tight to grip the rock a lot better than a pair of trainers. That's all that's needed for a lot of people.

My hardest Boulder problems have been done in shoes that everyone says are way too big for me because I can wear them all day long no problem. i figure the advantage is that I'm not sat around constantly taking my shoes on and off instead I can think about the moves and such.
 Offwidth 01 Jul 2015
In reply to neuromancer:

Depends on the definition of properly fitted: if this means pain after a few minutes the shoes are just too tight.

Since I have bunion growth I have to wear loose shoes with socks to last any reasonable time but sometime wear a tighter pair for a few mintes to do a technical slabby problem on small edges. The grade difference is both small and specific for me, so on that theoretical average VS I completely disagree there is any likely benefit (except for any placebo effect). I think its easier with good well fitting shoes for a competant climber to improve footwork (or avoid bad footwork) and know how much they help on some harder problems or routes but some folk had ace footwork in old school shoes before the invention of modern technical shoes; so its not a neccesity. A mate of mine won The Edge open boulder comp with shoes almost falling apart (luckily part of the prize was new shoes). When I started climbing in the late 80s there seemed to be more E3 to E5 onsights in the shoes of the day than there are now with way more climbers and all the shoe improvements. All the gear and no idea was (ironically in this context) a common phase of the time. I still do boulder comps and try hard, so know my relative low technical ability but typically on a relative basis seem to be leading in my floppy third resole scarpas from 2 to 6 grades better than folk in 'the flush of bold youth' in fancy tight shoes.
 neuromancer 01 Jul 2015
In reply to Offwidth:
That's great for you. I bet Ondra could win the Edge open boulder comp in Crocs.

I'm not suggesting that the first pair of shoes a climber ever buys when they begin to climb should be painful. However, a well fitted shoe (i.e. one, where when you point your toe the shoe remains close to your heel and without a bag) will cause some discomfort when worn for extended periods.

This is not the same as "I can only wear it for one boulder problem".

But it is a middle ground and telling people that x climbed y wearing z is unhelpful to that person who will, as you'd probably agree, improve their footwork and climbing by wearing a better pair of shoes with a cleaner edge that fit them well.

Could they continue to improve their climbing wearing Boreal Jokers 3 sizes too big? Yes. Could they theoretically get to the dizzy heights of say, F7a? Probably. Would they do this quicker and easier in a pair of Miuras? Also probably.
Post edited at 11:00
 BFG 01 Jul 2015
In reply to ultrabumbly:

> Most people who bought shoes frequently twigged to the fact that S&M sessions with your feet in plastic bags inside the shoe stopped being ever necessary around the time 5.10s and evolv type designs became the norm. Those that got through shoes less quickly carried on for a few years going too tight.

> Aside from the tightness I have nearly always seen people that mainly climb indoors go for a way too technical shoe.

It's about balance.

I don't really disagree, but just to offer a counterpoint, my current pair of shoes were sized too tight, after being advised by the shop that their unlined construction was liable to seriously stretch. A couple of weeks down the line they've gone from deeply unpleasant to comfortable.

I also mainly climb indoors in downturned, technical shoes. Partially because between the heat and the fact that pretty much every wall in my local wall is overhanging, my super comfortable, utterly practical for mid-grade and multi-pitch bumbling moaccasyms don't really perform. it's also because, when I do get on stuff that overhanging outside, I tend to switch to more technical shoes. It's also about training with the tools I actually use. I do take the point that this isn't the same for everyone.

I agree with the OP about his main point though. I had the reverse situation - sold shoes 'too tight' on first use, but with good reason. I was well advised. These days I also tend to google "How much do X stretch" as I'm trying them on just to double check what the shop assistants are saying.
 JamieSparkes Global Crag Moderator 01 Jul 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:

just to counter this, I have overheard the staff at Outside in Hathersage flat out refusing to bring out a pair of dragons for a customer looking for their first pair of climbing shoes, and instead guiding them into a good pair of beginner shoes. I guess it depends where you shop.
In reply to Mutl3y:

I think it really comes down to whether you are in a dedicated climbing shop or an outdoor shop that sells climbing gear. Of course some outdoor shops have great staff who climb and can fit shoes well but a lot of outdoor shop staff just think 'Tight' when it comes to climbing shoes as they have no first hand experience of using them.
 gethin_allen 01 Jul 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:

I thought I was having a moment like this with Ian at cragX when I was buying my first pair of sportiva rock boots.

Him: What size are you ?
Me:8.5 ish.
him:Ok you'll need a 39 ish.
Me: but isn't that a size 6?

Little did I know about the crazy sizes of sportiva mythos boots. And the boots fitted like a glove and are the most comfortable boots I've ever had.
I guess there's a lesson in there somewhere.
 AlanLittle 01 Jul 2015
In reply to gethin_allen:

Sounds pretty normal for La Sportiva.

I normally wear about 45 street shoes. In Miuras I'm a 42 for a snug sport climbing fit, 42.5 for a comfy multipitch fit. I tried 43's on for comfy multipitch at first, but they felt like they would become floppy and useless once they had flattened out a bit.
 Kemics 01 Jul 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:

There is also the other argument of people climbing in really shit shoes learn some really bad footwork habits because they dont trust them because they constantly pop off holds etc

As the zen master would say - The middle way is best

 BarrySW19 01 Jul 2015
In reply to gethin_allen:

> I thought I was having a moment like this with Ian at cragX when I was buying my first pair of sportiva rock boots.

> Him: What size are you ?
> Me:8.5 ish.
> him:Ok you'll need a 39 ish.
> Me: but isn't that a size 6?

I do suspect some shoe manufacturers have caught on and are oversizing their shoes to compensate. I have a pair of women's Guide Tennies two sizes below my normal shoe size and they are still a bit too big for me (almost an inch of space between toe and shoe).
 Offwidth 02 Jul 2015
In reply to neuromancer:

Discomfort for medium term use like a couple of hours indoor session is not a middle ground its towards an extreme and damaging to your feet and simply isn't neccessary if you try the alternative of a better more comfy fit. Climbing in discomfort builds as much poor technique for footwork as shoes being too lose; you wont weight them in a natural relaxed way. A good fit to me should mean the tightest you can get with no discomfort and most of the time your average climber would be better off with a half size bigger than that. My mate was no Ondra: the best shoes in their best nick clearly don't matter on indoor bouldering as much as people make out otherwise against sheffield climbers with the best shoes how could he have stood a chance?
 flopsicle 02 Jul 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:
I think I count as a 'Punter'! I've definitely struggled with shoes and my current ones hurt but are a compromise. I don't crimp my toes as one of my big toes doesn't bend very well. I've tried both larger and smaller but my current ones feel right for me.

I'm a grown up, it's my choice, however I find it ridiculous the way climbing shoes are sized and the maker CLEARLY support the meme that fooot crushingly small is good. I find it disingenuous that there's a warning to avoid hot spots and not fit too tight on shoes so blatantly made that way - like a health warning almost placed to underline how cool it would be to pay no attention.

But... I'm a grown up, it's my choice, what really gets to me is that they do the same with children's climbing shoes.

These are a pair of euro 29 climbing shoes next to the same size Clarks shoes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/floppit/climbing%20shoes/20150702_07...

Houston there's a problem - a really big problem when that kind of things aimed at kids is ok in anyone's eyes.
Post edited at 08:19
 neuromancer 02 Jul 2015
In reply to Offwidth:
> A good fit to me should mean the tightest you can get with no discomfort and most of the time your average climber would be better off with a half size bigger than that.

Why would the average climber be better off in a pair of shoes LARGER than a pair of shoes that still cause them no discomfort? You're literally making 0 senses.

0 senses.

Why don't you just wear flip flops?
Post edited at 09:10
 @ndyM@rsh@ll 02 Jul 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:

There's not really a simple answer to the question "How should you size your climbing shoes?"

My experience of selling the things was pretty variable, but on a semi regular basis I'd get customers who had presumably seen these don't-let-them-talk-you-into-getting-tight-shoes threads and would refuse to buy anything where their toes were within an inch of the end. Equally others have been primed thinking they need to get really tight shoes when there's not going to be any benefit to them yet in doing so. Obviously both of these categories are mainly beginners, anyone who's been climbing a while will know what they want. Knowing what they want doesn't necessarily mean they're always right to want it either though.

It's worth thinking about the design of the shoe as well, lots of the more technical shoes are designed to be tight. It was a pretty regular occurance while I was working in a climbing shop for people to demand one of the more technical shoes in a size that meant they were going to get damn near zero benefit from it except lighter pockets. I did on occasion as well refuse to sell 5.10 dragons to people who would have been hindered a lot more than helped.

For what it's worth I think a lot more people have an issue with fit than size, and just don't realise it. It's a fairly extreme example but my shoes are about an inch and a half shorter than my feet before they go on and I wear them merrily for hours because they fit well with no hot-spots. I'm not recommending this for most people who as you've said really don't need it but you can fit the right shoe tighter with more comfort and better performance than the wrong shoe at nearly any size.

Finally, the worst offender I ever knew for trying to force people into tiny shoes was extremely experienced at climbing and in his 60s.
 Hat Dude 02 Jul 2015
In reply to flopsicle:


> These are a pair of euro 29 climbing shoes next to the same size Clarks shoes:

Those climbing shoes are a lot further away than the others! It's a trick of perspective
 flopsicle 02 Jul 2015
In reply to Hat Dude:

No it bloody isn't! I'm not going to take loads of pics to prove it either - they are both euro 29 and I'm not a trick photgrapher, nor is the image altered. I have 4 pairs of kids climbing shoes, that pair is the worst but all are undersized to a harmful extent.

If you fancy a trip to Notts I'm more than happy to physically show you.
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 Hat Dude 02 Jul 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

Twas a quip
 flopsicle 02 Jul 2015
In reply to Hat Dude:

'pologies... I get a bit aerated due to just being so shocked that it's done.
 Rob Davies 03 Jul 2015
In reply to Mutl3y:

> I daren't tell him that Brown's Eliminate has been climbed in wellies

Brown famously climbed his Eliminate originally in nailed boots (not wellies) and said that the nails hooked nicely over the sharp edges of the little flakes that were originally present.

I expect that nailed boots will make a comeback before long as super-technical edging footwear. At least they would be reasonably comfortable.
 Offwidth 03 Jul 2015
In reply to neuromancer:

For several reasons (for a mere half, size... what sizing system are you using that for a half size turns a tight fit to flip flops)... discomfort limits faced indoors in a few hours is not the same as long days with descents; your feet swell on long days even if not climbing; you may want to wear thicker socks for more comfort, warmth or as anti midge devices.

Keep em coming. The readers can decide any sense.
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 Offwidth 03 Jul 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

It took too long to do something about over training and over competing for kids... shoes next eh?
 neuromancer 03 Jul 2015
In reply to Offwidth:

So we should be sizing our normal technical rock boots to accommodate for that one time when we might need to climb the walker spur in them and want to wear bridgedale socks and/or to allow us to do a 2 mile walk-off rather than clip a pair of Inov8's to our harness?

No wait.. I've got it.. the best spurious excuse - so that we can fit midge nets into our rock boots! Thats it! I've been wrong all along.

You are a strange one.
 Offwidth 03 Jul 2015
In reply to neuromancer:

Alternately wear them when you are good enough to benefit and on the climbs you actually need them. Your silly exaggerations without answering my points on why some climbers do pretty well without them (when thinking well on the long term consequencies of over-tight shoes on the health of feet) are all part of the problem... too many folk are in denial that probably most shoes are unsuitably tight and technical for most indoor climbers most of the time.

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 neuromancer 03 Jul 2015
In reply to Offwidth:

I didn't exaggerate, I just poked fun at what you actually said. It sounds like exaggeration because you were talking spurious wankery!

I've also answered your anecdotes about this guy who once did good at an indoor Boulder competition with loose old shoes - and I'll do them again. 1) He was a good enough climber that he wasn't being tested by the competition. If it was harder, he would have needed good shoes. 2) just because a good climber can climb something in bad or no shoes does not mean that an average climber will not improve using fitted shoes. Just like ondra can campus 8a, you would need climbing shoes - and those that are better fitted would help you more.

I'm beginning to get the feeling you're trolling me (the broken enough contributes).
 Offwidth 03 Jul 2015
In reply to neuromancer:

You clearly don't seem to realise what winning The Edge comp meant in the UK back then.

Just looking at your profile I'm not sure now if you are not trolling. There is not that much evidence you climb harder than me as an old overweight bumbly operating in loose shoes. Just where is all this performance expertise coming from?
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 neuromancer 03 Jul 2015
In reply to Offwidth:

Good-oh - if you don't actually have an argument to make, get personal and attack the person you're arguing with.

Good show etc.

And that's me out of here, too much bitterness.
 flopsicle 04 Jul 2015
In reply to Offwidth:

To actually get a childs foot in it would take force and tears so hopefully no-one would actually attempt. It does indicate how bizarre and engrained it is with manufacturers and I think is worth noting when considering if manufacturers are just following trend or making shoes the size that 'should' work best climbing.

I think the child's (unusable) sizing is hard evidence that the makers are not maximising performance but instead following profitable trends. I have 3 different makes of kids shoes in this house, while those are the worst NONE of them could be used for the size of feet in the label and I don't mind my kid haveing them snug for an hour or so.

If I was 18 or 20 I might want to know that what the makers are doing can be so clearly deranged before trusting feet that will have to carry me for another 70 years to them.
 Offwidth 04 Jul 2015
In reply to neuromancer:

Its not an attack I'd seriously like to know. I got my viewpoint changed by podiatrists, high performance climbers, the shops who cared most about customers and watching the suitability of punter footwear indoors get progressively worse.

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