Compulsory guiding on Helvellyn?

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 wercat 24 Jun 2015
First time I've heard that suggested and rather amazed by the idea:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-33242230
 JayPee630 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

Honestly, this comes up in the news every so often. It's not going to happen, it's just a quip made by someone that's upset or ignorant or both.
 Ramblin dave 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

It seems to be one random woman that the local news talked to that suggested it. So don't hold your breath.
 winhill 24 Jun 2015
In reply to JayPee630:

> Honestly, this comes up in the news every so often. It's not going to happen, it's just a quip made by someone that's upset or ignorant or both.

Or just completely fecking crazy.

I wonder if she is the same Linda Howard-Bates who features in this ghostly tale:

"But for spiritualist medium Linda Howard-Bates, the pictures offered a rare opportunity to investigate what many will regard as psychic phenomena.

I sensed a man's presence and this is the same man I communicated with in the smaller room at the Thomas Cook premises just as soon as I arrived upstairs....I cannot connect with the young girl but I get an older lady wearing a black dress with a high collar...Later, I feel the presence of another man who has positioned himself in one corner of the same room...In the other room upstairs I picked up the presence of a young baby up in the corner...She is eating toast, has sticky butter on her fingers."

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-travel-agents-cctv-ghost-footage...
 obi-wan nick b 24 Jun 2015
In reply to Ramblin dave:

#unnecessarydescriptoralert
 ablackett 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

Considering someone goes up there every day and assesses the fell top conditions, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the same chap to stick a sign in glenridding suggesting how much snow cover, and what gear might be required, Crampons/axe, etc. It wouldn't stop most accidents, but it would serve to educate some people about how there can be winter conditions up there late into spring.

Obviously compulsory guiding will never happen, just daft.

Clauso 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

I think that compulsory guiding on Helvellyn is a great idea.

I'd like to be guided by Bear Grylls, and spend a week up there surviving on sheep shit and Bear's urine.
 kipper12 24 Jun 2015
In reply to Clauso:
> (In reply to wercat)
>
> I'd like to be guided by Bear Grylls, and spend a week up there surviving on sheep shit and Bear's urine.

No doubd the next fad diet

 Dark-Cloud 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

I especially like this quote: "It should be possible to enforce some sort of guide system."

Erm, OK, be interesting to see the debate and controls around that.....
In reply to ablackett:

> Considering someone goes up there every day and assesses the fell top conditions, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the same chap to stick a sign in glenridding suggesting how much snow cover, and what gear might be required, Crampons/axe, etc. It wouldn't stop most accidents, but it would serve to educate some people about how there can be winter conditions up there late into spring.

And where would it end? What about every other mountain in the Lake District ? If people venture onto a mountain then it's of their own accord and they have to be responsible for any outcome. There's enough information out there if people need it.

 Ramblin dave 24 Jun 2015
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
> And where would it end? What about every other mountain in the Lake District ? If people venture onto a mountain then it's of their own accord and they have to be responsible for any outcome. There's enough information out there if people need it.

If there are genuinely a significant number of people coming to grief on Helvellyn because they don't get the "just because it's a nice day down here at the moment" thing, and if this is a problem that's quite specific to Helvellyn because it's big famous honeypot that's attractive to people who aren't regular hillwalkers (and those are both significant "ifs") then sensible signs at the points where the main paths leave the road seems like a reasonable pragmatic solution.

Huffing and puffing about personal responsibility and saying that there's enough information out there doesn't help if people evidently aren't accessing it. And the fact that it's their own stupid fault for not being aware of the dangers probably isn't much comfort to their grieving relatives.

Edit: it wouldn't end with "every other mountain in the Lake District" because, as far as I'm aware, you don't get many underprepared tourists coming to grief on Seatallan or Great Calva.
Post edited at 13:24
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 SenzuBean 24 Jun 2015
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

> I especially like this quote: "It should be possible to enforce some sort of guide system."

> Erm, OK, be interesting to see the debate and controls around that.....

"Man dies while escaping from guide police during midnight ridge attempt"
In reply to Ramblin dave:

No one's 'huffing and puffing'. If 'punters' see signs at the foot of one mountain they will expect them at the foot of others. It wouldn't take long before someone is looking for someone to blame because there wasn't any warning of conditions on some other popular mountain.

Should the same be on Great Gable, Scafell, Coniston old man etc and if so who is going to trudge up and down every day. Even then conditions at 5pm could be very different from 9am when some such notice was posted.

There's signs at the foot of the Tourist Path on Ben Nevis advising of potential conditions at the top and yet you still get people in shorts, T shirts, no water, trainers etc etc going up every year.



1
 Ramblin dave 24 Jun 2015

> No one's 'huffing and puffing'. If 'punters' see signs at the foot of one mountain they will expect them at the foot of others. It wouldn't take long before someone is looking for someone to blame because there wasn't any warning of conditions on some other popular mountain.

> Should the same be on Great Gable, Scafell, Coniston old man etc and if so who is going to trudge up and down every day. Even then conditions at 5pm could be very different from 9am when some such notice was posted.

I don't think there's a need for daily updated conditions reports - if there's a need for anything at all (and it might turn out that the people getting into trouble are all experienced mountaineers who looked at the forecast but were lazy about when to put crampons on at all) then it'd probably just be a "warning, it can get cold and windy at 900m and cloud and wind can blow in quickly" sort of thing. Maybe there would be a case for them at a few other popular locations too - a few signs in car parks is hardly expensive or intrusive (compared to, say, the car parks themselves).

Sure it won't stop all the muppets, but it's a very small investment of effort and very low impact, so if it saves a life or two or a few mountain rescue callouts then it's probably worth it. This is the sort of thing that should be fairly easy to decide based on readily available evidence (ie mountain rescue logs) - is there a genuine issue with significant numbers of people underestimating the conditions in this particular location?

You worry that if people see a sign by one hill, they'll "expect them at the foot of others". But if they've seen a sign by one hill, they'll presumably already know a bit more than they used to about what conditions on the hills can be like. Have you heard of anyone getting into trouble in Arrochar and explaining that there was a sign by the Ben but not by the Cobbler, so they assumed that the weather on the Cobbler was always balmy and clear? Or complaining that they needed rescuing because there's a forecast posted at the Aviemore Ski Centre so they expected one at Linn of Dee too?
Post edited at 14:33
abseil 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

> First time I've heard that suggested....

Never mind Helvellyn. Some UK streets are far more dangerous than that and should only be attempted with a guide, especially around 11 PM. Can't they be guided?
Post edited at 14:36
 ChrisJD 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

... all walkers should have insurance and pay road tax

 Dauphin 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

Death and or dismemberment and contemplation of such are part of the authentic mountain experience. My dopamine deprived synapses cannot countenance nanny state interference into the gentlemanly pastime of precipitous verti-tweaking.

Yeah signage, great whatever. You see it all over the world. And Scotland.

D
 PontiusPirate 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

This is a more level-headed report on the incident in question:

http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2015/06/21/helvellyn-walker-dies-after-fal...

Note how the deceased and their son were described as "well-equipped".
One of the casualties from earlier this year was actually a very experienced mountaineer, admittedly of advanced years.

PP.
In reply to wercat:

Love it when people bring up the idea of 'enforced guiding', it has the same feeling as charging for MR. Never hear a sensible solution as to who is doing the enforcing or charging.

 Billhook 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

How will any guide stop people from tripping up and going head over heels down hill???

What next? Compulsory roping up?
 SenzuBean 24 Jun 2015
In reply to PontiusPirate:

It says he died of head injuries. I wonder if a helmet would've done any good in this case, and in some of the other cases too.
llechwedd 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

Any guides so employed should be dressed as either a Beatrix Potter character or Alfred Wainwright in order to display their sensitivity to local culture.
And they should carry spare orange peel for those who haven't brought their own.
 Dave the Rave 24 Jun 2015
In reply to llechwedd:

> Any guides so employed should be dressed as either a Beatrix Potter character or Alfred Wainwright in order to display their sensitivity to local culture.

The Red Squirrel would be good, then it could be called Tufty the Safety Squirrel?

> And they should carry spare orange peel for those who haven't brought their own.
Or banana skins?

 Fat Bumbly2 24 Jun 2015
In reply to Clauso:
Bare Grills....
"nd spend a week up there surviving on sheep shit and Bear's urine."

Or the contents of the mini bar and room service.
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In reply to wercat:

It's just a single vox pop from a misguided/deluded walker which means we can pay approximately zero attention to it.

NEXT!
1
 petestack 24 Jun 2015
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

> There's signs at the foot of the Tourist Path on Ben Nevis advising of potential conditions at the top and yet you still get people in shorts, T shirts, no water, trainers etc etc going up every year.

Aye, lots of September hill racers guilty on all four counts + off-duty mountain leaders/instructors/guides and other fast & light enthusiasts on at least three...

There's folk in trainers and folk in trainers!

Andy Gamisou 24 Jun 2015
In reply to Clauso:

> I'd like to be guided by Bear Grylls, and spend a week up there surviving on sheep shit and Bear's urine.

I'd like to be guided by Bear Grylls, then beat him to death with a large trout. Sigh! If only dreams could come true.
 Brass Nipples 24 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:


I'm all for guiding on Helvellyn. I've generally found guides (and scouts) to be mature beyond their years and able to knock out a good song round the campfire as the sun sets.
 summo 24 Jun 2015
In reply to ChrisJD:

> ... all walkers should have insurance and pay road tax

Path tax.

Stickers on rucksack so wardens at stiles can tell you've paid. Or express kissing gates for those with a pre-loaded ramblers card to scan.

Perhaps a price per mile would be better. Heavy routes like the 3 peaks will be more costly, than some obscure Corbett. Not forgetting the winter rebate, as snow covered paths wear less. But if you walk after a thaw, expect a premium for churning up the paths. West Highland Way will probably be an expensive trip!

Pensioner and Student discount, but also a fine for middle path hogging, not letting those faster pass.
OP wercat 24 Jun 2015
In reply to summo:

I quite like the idea of a trick test "what are you planning?" as you go through the turnstile. Any mention of "scaling" or "conquering" and you'll be led away and your wallet emptied
In reply to higherclimbingwales:

> It's just a single vox pop from a misguided/deluded walker which means we can pay approximately zero attention to it.

> NEXT!

Doubt she is misguided, seems quite in favour if them.
 summo 25 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

No, I think walkers should be incentivised, bogoff deals. Tick helvellyn, dollywagon for free.
 DancingOnRock 25 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

I suspect a 'guiding system' is not the same as 'a guide'.

Presumably as Striding Edge is such a popular Classic it gets visited by more people than other hills and so sees more than its fair share of accidents.

A board in the car park would be what I imagine to be part of a 'guiding system'.

I was put off doing Pavey Arc a couple of years ago as there were a couple of deaths within a year and my head just wasn't in it. I still had a great day by following an alternative route up the back which I later found out was also a Grade I scramble!
 goose299 25 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

Compulsory guiding would be totally unenforceable unless you built a big steel wall round the whole area
 Leearma 25 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

What a load of Bob Locks!

Linda Howard-Bates, what a dozy bint! As they would say in Cumbria.

Notice boards and instructions...well there is -50% of the population who that won't work for, how many blokes do you know that read the instructions?

With regards to the enforcement of a Guide only area...that is just going to add to my excitement dodging all those guides and the law. Will they be tooled up with NVD and the Long Ranged Sniper Rifle?

I'll accept the risk of getting caught much the same way as I do the risk of venturing onto the fells, if it goes pear shaped I'll do my best to get out of it as best I can.

I know it won't happen, but if it did I would like to see if compulsory that double barreled knob heads to get 8 hours of swimming in Ullswater without a buoyancy aid.

Thank you and good night

Guided area...whatever next???
 Ridge 25 Jun 2015
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> It seems to be one random woman that the local news talked to that suggested it. So don't hold your breath.

Mrs Ridge and me were shouting at the Radio as Cumbria's worst radio presenter took calls from an assortment of Dumbrians on this subject. Mrs 'build a wall of steel around Helvellyn and force people to be guided up it' was a particular highlight in the stupidity stakes.
redsonja 26 Jun 2015
In reply to wercat:

I can't help but wonder where exactly people fall from and why. Is it the same place?

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