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One of the great benefits of being a BMC member is getting a gear discount at numerous shops. And the BMC use this to promote becoming a member. The BMC advertise on their website that Needlesports give a 10% BMC Discount. https://www.thebmc.co.uk/get-discounts-in-shops-nationwide
I'm rather frustrated that when trying to buy a portaledge with a full retail price of £540 from Needlesports, they wouldn't give a BMC discount (that's £54 saving and makes being a member very worthwhile!!). I phoned ahead because they had one in stock but I was planning to pick it up from the store (as they only offer in store discount). I spoke to a retail assistant and the assistant manager who stated that it was so specialist that they wouldn't offer a discount.
I can only suspect that they might have known that they were the only guys who have one in stock and are thus trying to profiteer from the situation.
I spoke to the BMC and they are investigating the issue. They did say that its the retailers prerogative to give a discount and they have this little T&C's clause about the retailers on their page but I don't think its cricket! I wonder why an organisation like the BMC would want to continue relationships with retails that don't honour their word / policies advertised. I'll let you know what they say when they get back to me.
Now the BMC do lots of good things for climbers/walkers but I'm starting to wonder if I want to be a member. I certainly know that I won't bother shopping at Needlesports ever again or recommending then to anyone.
I'm rather frustrated that when trying to buy a portaledge with a full retail price of £540 from Needlesports, they wouldn't give a BMC discount (that's £54 saving and makes being a member very worthwhile!!). I phoned ahead because they had one in stock but I was planning to pick it up from the store (as they only offer in store discount). I spoke to a retail assistant and the assistant manager who stated that it was so specialist that they wouldn't offer a discount.
I can only suspect that they might have known that they were the only guys who have one in stock and are thus trying to profiteer from the situation.
I spoke to the BMC and they are investigating the issue. They did say that its the retailers prerogative to give a discount and they have this little T&C's clause about the retailers on their page but I don't think its cricket! I wonder why an organisation like the BMC would want to continue relationships with retails that don't honour their word / policies advertised. I'll let you know what they say when they get back to me.
Now the BMC do lots of good things for climbers/walkers but I'm starting to wonder if I want to be a member. I certainly know that I won't bother shopping at Needlesports ever again or recommending then to anyone.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
On behalf of Needle Sports, I'd like to reply to this rant and particularly to the above remark.
Firstly, everyone in business is trying to make a profit. I have no idea what your job is but chances are that you are either working for an organisation that relies on making a profit to pay your wages or you are working for one that relies on other organisations paying tax from the profits they make so your employer can pay your wages. Or perhaps you are self-employed in which case if you do not understand profit you probably won't be for very long.
Profiteering has a dirty ring to it though, implying that we are making excess profit. This is nonsense.
As I know was explained to you when you rang, the margin (that is the difference between the trade price and the retail price) on these portaledges is very low. It is actually over 15% lower than the other Black Diamond products we stock. I imagine that this is because portaledges are low volume items that are expensive to make and ship. To be honest, I don't really care. We have one in stock because we are all climbers and love climbing and try to provide a good service to our customers, particularly Matt who you spoke to on the phone, who has done quite a number of El Cap big walls and was especially keen that we should offer as big a stock of aid gear as we can afford.
We do do ten percent discount for BMC members who call in the shop on most stuff we sell but as we have told the BMC, this does not apply to books, maps, dvds, sale items, special offers and certain low margin items such as electronic equipment etc. What they put on their website is their concern.
Of course, when a customer’s opening remark is along the lines of, “I can get one from a German website for £480 so what discount are you going to give me?” that customer is not exactly going to endear themselves to the staff, and sadly we get rather too much of this kind of approach.
Fortunately there are lots of really nice customers out there who appreciate what we do and for whom price is but a small part of the overall picture and for whom a friendly and knowledgeable approach on both sides is far more important.
But good luck with the European Court of Human Rights – it all sounds right up their street!
> I can only suspect that they might have known that they were the only guys who have one in stock and are thus trying to profiteer from the situation.
On behalf of Needle Sports, I'd like to reply to this rant and particularly to the above remark.
Firstly, everyone in business is trying to make a profit. I have no idea what your job is but chances are that you are either working for an organisation that relies on making a profit to pay your wages or you are working for one that relies on other organisations paying tax from the profits they make so your employer can pay your wages. Or perhaps you are self-employed in which case if you do not understand profit you probably won't be for very long.
Profiteering has a dirty ring to it though, implying that we are making excess profit. This is nonsense.
As I know was explained to you when you rang, the margin (that is the difference between the trade price and the retail price) on these portaledges is very low. It is actually over 15% lower than the other Black Diamond products we stock. I imagine that this is because portaledges are low volume items that are expensive to make and ship. To be honest, I don't really care. We have one in stock because we are all climbers and love climbing and try to provide a good service to our customers, particularly Matt who you spoke to on the phone, who has done quite a number of El Cap big walls and was especially keen that we should offer as big a stock of aid gear as we can afford.
We do do ten percent discount for BMC members who call in the shop on most stuff we sell but as we have told the BMC, this does not apply to books, maps, dvds, sale items, special offers and certain low margin items such as electronic equipment etc. What they put on their website is their concern.
Of course, when a customer’s opening remark is along the lines of, “I can get one from a German website for £480 so what discount are you going to give me?” that customer is not exactly going to endear themselves to the staff, and sadly we get rather too much of this kind of approach.
Fortunately there are lots of really nice customers out there who appreciate what we do and for whom price is but a small part of the overall picture and for whom a friendly and knowledgeable approach on both sides is far more important.
But good luck with the European Court of Human Rights – it all sounds right up their street!
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
As far as I'm concerned, keep doing what you are already guys. I've always found your prices very competitive, your service is 2nd to none. The staff is more than helpful and you certainly stock some items many others don't. This is why I keep coming back to you.
As far as I'm concerned, keep doing what you are already guys. I've always found your prices very competitive, your service is 2nd to none. The staff is more than helpful and you certainly stock some items many others don't. This is why I keep coming back to you.
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
Excellent come back. Unfortunately it's a fact of life now that people can scour the net to find the cheapest price, normally from some spurious place in outer Mongolia with no overheads because they have neither stock or staff and just ship to the customer directly from the manufacturer and that makes places like yours look expensive.
We get the same.
Customer "I can buy that same 5k compressor on eBay new for 4.5k"
Me" go buy it then"
customer "won't you match the price?"
me "no sorry I cant"
customer "you won't stay in business long like that"
me "been going since 86 and still here"
me again "does eBay offer 24/7/365 breakdown cover on that compressor? Do they have 8 fully qualified service engineers in the area to guarantee a 4 (most often 2) hour response time? Do they have a stock of loan and hire compressors that can be installed within a couple of hours if we can't fix yours? "
and the final question that almost always seals the deal, " how much do you lose in production if your factory is stood due to a breakdown for the sake of saving £500 ? "
Excellent come back. Unfortunately it's a fact of life now that people can scour the net to find the cheapest price, normally from some spurious place in outer Mongolia with no overheads because they have neither stock or staff and just ship to the customer directly from the manufacturer and that makes places like yours look expensive.
We get the same.
Customer "I can buy that same 5k compressor on eBay new for 4.5k"
Me" go buy it then"
customer "won't you match the price?"
me "no sorry I cant"
customer "you won't stay in business long like that"
me "been going since 86 and still here"
me again "does eBay offer 24/7/365 breakdown cover on that compressor? Do they have 8 fully qualified service engineers in the area to guarantee a 4 (most often 2) hour response time? Do they have a stock of loan and hire compressors that can be installed within a couple of hours if we can't fix yours? "
and the final question that almost always seals the deal, " how much do you lose in production if your factory is stood due to a breakdown for the sake of saving £500 ? "
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In reply to Dax H:
I agree that there is more to a transaction than just the price - but I don't agree that the ability of consumers to shop around to find the best available deal is "unfortunate".
> Excellent come back. Unfortunately it's a fact of life now that people can scour the net to find the cheapest price...
I agree that there is more to a transaction than just the price - but I don't agree that the ability of consumers to shop around to find the best available deal is "unfortunate".
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In reply to saclimber2000: If the only reason you're a member of the BMC is for discounts then that's fair enough. If you have a lot of stuff to buy you can probably save the £30 membership fee pretty quickly. However, slagging off a shop because they've behaved perfectly reasonably is nonsense.
The BMC isn't in a position to require shops to offer a discount and there's nothing they can do about this. The best thing is usually to turn up in person, charm the pants of the sales guy (literally or otherwise depending on how you prefer your salesmen) and then see what sort of deal that gets you.
The BMC isn't in a position to require shops to offer a discount and there's nothing they can do about this. The best thing is usually to turn up in person, charm the pants of the sales guy (literally or otherwise depending on how you prefer your salesmen) and then see what sort of deal that gets you.
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
Firstly Stephen,
No-one mentioned anything about European Court of Human rights, you're clearly the one ranting here???
Any your comment surrounding the Website is wrong and purposefully misleading, I asked if you guys would do a BMC discount and stating that the website had it at £480 but I would like to give my business to a local company. I wasn't asking you to match it, I was only asking for a BMC discount (in store). You are purposefully misquoting and misleading which is what you guys seem to be doing with pricing anyway.
Regarding your rant on business, it's called competition and it's all part of business. You're absolutely smearing trying to imply or not implying, simply saying that I was rude about the issue which I wasn't but lets be honest, I wasn't expecting a positive response from you guys. And no surprise, I didn't get one.
I liked the way UKC took the post down when I first posted it to give you guys a heads up it was coming and only reinstated it once I emailed them asking why? Hmmmmm. That sounds funny. Are you a UKC client?
Fortunately, I got one now and at an even better price but it's a shame because the other UK retailer I did try were happy to give the BMC discount they normally offer but they couldn't meet the date. So in the end, you lost business and potential customers. I'd like to have kept it in the UK tho.
Firstly Stephen,
No-one mentioned anything about European Court of Human rights, you're clearly the one ranting here???
Any your comment surrounding the Website is wrong and purposefully misleading, I asked if you guys would do a BMC discount and stating that the website had it at £480 but I would like to give my business to a local company. I wasn't asking you to match it, I was only asking for a BMC discount (in store). You are purposefully misquoting and misleading which is what you guys seem to be doing with pricing anyway.
Regarding your rant on business, it's called competition and it's all part of business. You're absolutely smearing trying to imply or not implying, simply saying that I was rude about the issue which I wasn't but lets be honest, I wasn't expecting a positive response from you guys. And no surprise, I didn't get one.
I liked the way UKC took the post down when I first posted it to give you guys a heads up it was coming and only reinstated it once I emailed them asking why? Hmmmmm. That sounds funny. Are you a UKC client?
Fortunately, I got one now and at an even better price but it's a shame because the other UK retailer I did try were happy to give the BMC discount they normally offer but they couldn't meet the date. So in the end, you lost business and potential customers. I'd like to have kept it in the UK tho.
Post edited at 17:34
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In reply to saclimber2000:
Needlesports has an excellent reputation that a slightly deranged rant from you won't change. You are making yourself look stupid here, sequentially slagging off Needlesports, the BMC and now UKC. I suggest you stop digging.
Needlesports has an excellent reputation that a slightly deranged rant from you won't change. You are making yourself look stupid here, sequentially slagging off Needlesports, the BMC and now UKC. I suggest you stop digging.
Post edited at 17:33
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In reply to saclimber2000:
Obviously no-one likes paying more if there's a possibility of paying less, but on this occasion, you probably should be a bit more sanguine - the money supports a good shop, and is paying for a rare item, and maybe the lack of a discount could be viewed as the corollary of getting it at all.
I think you may inadvertently done just this
> I wonder why an organisation like the BMC would want to continue relationships with retails that don't honour their word / policies advertised. I'll let you know what they say when they get back to me.
I'd be keen to know what they say; I'd have thought it's more in the BMC's interest to maintain relationships with quality shops like Needlesports, which in turn probably view the wider work of the BMC more positively than the bigger chains. Obviously no-one likes paying more if there's a possibility of paying less, but on this occasion, you probably should be a bit more sanguine - the money supports a good shop, and is paying for a rare item, and maybe the lack of a discount could be viewed as the corollary of getting it at all.
> I certainly know that I won't bother...recommending then to anyone.
I think you may inadvertently done just this
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
This seems a good a place to say a big thankyou for getting the rope I ordered to me literally overnight, cut into the lengths I wanted as well. Excellent service as always, and why I prefer to shop at Needle Sports. Now if only the weather forecast would improve for Saturday....
This seems a good a place to say a big thankyou for getting the rope I ordered to me literally overnight, cut into the lengths I wanted as well. Excellent service as always, and why I prefer to shop at Needle Sports. Now if only the weather forecast would improve for Saturday....
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In reply to saclimber2000:
Actually it was reinstated considerably before your complaint email, and at Stephen's request, as you were informed by email.
Our policy on disputes like this is to remove them, contact both parties, and let them deal with it. Sometimes that means reinstating them, sometimes it doesn't. This policy is the same for all outdoor trade whether they advertise or not.
It is a policy based on experience of dealing with disputes where often the starter complaint post is either premature, or short of essential facts, yet can be quite damaging to relatively small businesses and can often be dealt with out of the public glare by a conversation between the two parties.
Alan
> I liked the way UKC took the post down when I first posted it to give you guys a heads up it was coming and only reinstated it once I emailed them asking why? Hmmmmm. That sounds funny. Are you a UKC client?
Actually it was reinstated considerably before your complaint email, and at Stephen's request, as you were informed by email.
Our policy on disputes like this is to remove them, contact both parties, and let them deal with it. Sometimes that means reinstating them, sometimes it doesn't. This policy is the same for all outdoor trade whether they advertise or not.
It is a policy based on experience of dealing with disputes where often the starter complaint post is either premature, or short of essential facts, yet can be quite damaging to relatively small businesses and can often be dealt with out of the public glare by a conversation between the two parties.
Alan
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
I've always found Needlesports to be totally helpful, flexible and offering a great service, for instance when my recent order went missing in the post they sent me another item out with a minimum of fuss and no extra charge. I'd rather use them than anyone else.
I've always found Needlesports to be totally helpful, flexible and offering a great service, for instance when my recent order went missing in the post they sent me another item out with a minimum of fuss and no extra charge. I'd rather use them than anyone else.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
Hey! I've got an idea!
Why don't you just f*ck off and buy it in Germany?
Hey! I've got an idea!
Why don't you just f*ck off and buy it in Germany?
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In reply to the thread:
I'm not that impressed by the concept of a "BMC discount" anyhow. What it effectively means is that young and impecunious climbers who can't afford BMC membership then get charged more, and people on decent salaries (like myself) get a discount.
I'm not that impressed by the concept of a "BMC discount" anyhow. What it effectively means is that young and impecunious climbers who can't afford BMC membership then get charged more, and people on decent salaries (like myself) get a discount.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
If they had said in advance they would give you a discount then when you arrived in the shop refused to, you would have cause to complain. However it seems they were completely upfront about it, so why you feel the need to post this online is beyond me. Personally find their prices competitive and online service excellent.
If they had said in advance they would give you a discount then when you arrived in the shop refused to, you would have cause to complain. However it seems they were completely upfront about it, so why you feel the need to post this online is beyond me. Personally find their prices competitive and online service excellent.
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I've often used NS and they have always offered good advice and been a pleasure to deal with.
In this case it would seem they dealt with you straight and while you were disappointed I can't really say you have much of a leg to stand on with your compliant.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
£540-54=486, you got it for £480 and you spent some of your life whining on the internet? Does sa in your username stand for "sad act"?
£540-54=486, you got it for £480 and you spent some of your life whining on the internet? Does sa in your username stand for "sad act"?
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
Hi Guys
just like to say thanks for taking the time and trouble to call me about a slight change to my (on-line) order for Innovate's. It would have been easy for you to simply not bother and tell me that they were out of stock, but the call to offer me a number of alternatives was very prompt and very helpful. The shoes you supplied are spot on!
Thanks again, and I am sorry to admit it but I had shopped around on the price and you guys were very competitive too...hope that's OK
Hi Guys
just like to say thanks for taking the time and trouble to call me about a slight change to my (on-line) order for Innovate's. It would have been easy for you to simply not bother and tell me that they were out of stock, but the call to offer me a number of alternatives was very prompt and very helpful. The shoes you supplied are spot on!
Thanks again, and I am sorry to admit it but I had shopped around on the price and you guys were very competitive too...hope that's OK
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In reply to saclimber2000:
Rock and run and Decathlon are usually cheaper than Needle Sports...but not always...good to highlight consumer issues even in the UKC darling Needle sports...
Don't start me on those bloody fell and rock guidebooks again...
Rock and run and Decathlon are usually cheaper than Needle Sports...but not always...good to highlight consumer issues even in the UKC darling Needle sports...
Don't start me on those bloody fell and rock guidebooks again...
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In reply to Gael Force:
The chap will do well finding a portaledge in Decathlon!
Decathlon is great, but its a massively different business isn't it? Rock and Run do good deals, but at least a few years ago Needlesports free p&p usually made it the slightly cheap option.
> Rock and run and Decathlon are usually cheaper than Needle Sports...
The chap will do well finding a portaledge in Decathlon!
Decathlon is great, but its a massively different business isn't it? Rock and Run do good deals, but at least a few years ago Needlesports free p&p usually made it the slightly cheap option.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
I've never had anything other than brilliant service from Needle Sports, and that is why they are always the first place I turn to for climbing equipment. It's not always just about the price, but the service which comes with it.
I've never had anything other than brilliant service from Needle Sports, and that is why they are always the first place I turn to for climbing equipment. It's not always just about the price, but the service which comes with it.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
Lets face it, many shops today have 'sales assistants' who just try to sell you 'stuff'. They have very little depth to their service .
Needle Sports have some of the most knowledgeable staff I have met. Always tremedous help and assume you have a pretty good idea what you are after in the first place. My own example was replacing the adze on a set of old BD Prophets, they sourced the item, ensured it was the correct fit, put it on for me as well. Top class.
The OP needs to step back and reflect on where he has placed his size 10.
Lets face it, many shops today have 'sales assistants' who just try to sell you 'stuff'. They have very little depth to their service .
Needle Sports have some of the most knowledgeable staff I have met. Always tremedous help and assume you have a pretty good idea what you are after in the first place. My own example was replacing the adze on a set of old BD Prophets, they sourced the item, ensured it was the correct fit, put it on for me as well. Top class.
The OP needs to step back and reflect on where he has placed his size 10.
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
There are clearly 2 different issues here, firstly, Needle sports has fantastic customer service, great product knowledge and are always friendly, polite and it's just a great shop. Most people agree on that. I would always buy stuff there even if it was a few quid cheeper online.
secondly - The OP is a bit annoyed because they haven't offered him the discount he was expecting, and if you read the needle sports website, I would say that's fair enough. From the website "are eligible for a 10% discount on all purchases except for books, maps, videos, DVDs, CDs, special offers, sale items and certain low margin electrical goods"
If I read that, then made the trip to Keswick I can see myself being a bit annoyed that it was going to cost me £54 more than I had imagined, and at the least I might expect an apology for the misleading website information.
There are clearly 2 different issues here, firstly, Needle sports has fantastic customer service, great product knowledge and are always friendly, polite and it's just a great shop. Most people agree on that. I would always buy stuff there even if it was a few quid cheeper online.
secondly - The OP is a bit annoyed because they haven't offered him the discount he was expecting, and if you read the needle sports website, I would say that's fair enough. From the website "are eligible for a 10% discount on all purchases except for books, maps, videos, DVDs, CDs, special offers, sale items and certain low margin electrical goods"
If I read that, then made the trip to Keswick I can see myself being a bit annoyed that it was going to cost me £54 more than I had imagined, and at the least I might expect an apology for the misleading website information.
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In reply to ablackett:
But it sounds as if he was told on the phone that that was the policy, so no wasted trip.
(I'm not following you around Andy, honest!)
But it sounds as if he was told on the phone that that was the policy, so no wasted trip.
(I'm not following you around Andy, honest!)
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In reply to ablackett:
Yes -- "certain low margin electrical goods" is not the same as "certain low margin items *such as* electronic equipment, etc.", which is what Stephen Reid says the policy actually is. So it sounds like the wording on the website needs tweaking to reflect that more precisely.
But it does make it clear that there are exceptions to the BMC discount, which seems perfectly reasonable as a general principle -- it still applies to the vast majority of products.
And I notice the BMC page says "Please note that discounts may not apply to all products, or on sale items", so I don't really see how it's the BMC's fault or problem.
Like lots of other commenters, I've had exceptional service from Needlesports (and I buy from them over the internet, so I don't even get the discount anyway). And I've often consulted their website just as an information resource, because of the guides to tying knots, advice on putting together a first rack, etc..
Yes -- "certain low margin electrical goods" is not the same as "certain low margin items *such as* electronic equipment, etc.", which is what Stephen Reid says the policy actually is. So it sounds like the wording on the website needs tweaking to reflect that more precisely.
But it does make it clear that there are exceptions to the BMC discount, which seems perfectly reasonable as a general principle -- it still applies to the vast majority of products.
And I notice the BMC page says "Please note that discounts may not apply to all products, or on sale items", so I don't really see how it's the BMC's fault or problem.
Like lots of other commenters, I've had exceptional service from Needlesports (and I buy from them over the internet, so I don't even get the discount anyway). And I've often consulted their website just as an information resource, because of the guides to tying knots, advice on putting together a first rack, etc..
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In reply to saclimber2000:
As many other posters, I've had nothing but excellent service from Needlesports and I just don't get the BMC rant at all.
As many other posters, I've had nothing but excellent service from Needlesports and I just don't get the BMC rant at all.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
Just like to add in some praise for Needlesports too, ordered a guidebook 2 days before a trip to the Alps, it was ordered at 2pm in the afternoon and it was waiting at home for me the following day after I put a small plea in the customer notes. Their service is second to none, the range of stock they carry is fantastic and the fact that they even offer a discount on some items is just a bonus!
You are not in any worse position than you were before so why on earth you felt the need to have a rant on here about a well respected shop is beyond me. There are much bigger things in life to get worked up about, life is too short Keep smiling!
Just like to add in some praise for Needlesports too, ordered a guidebook 2 days before a trip to the Alps, it was ordered at 2pm in the afternoon and it was waiting at home for me the following day after I put a small plea in the customer notes. Their service is second to none, the range of stock they carry is fantastic and the fact that they even offer a discount on some items is just a bonus!
You are not in any worse position than you were before so why on earth you felt the need to have a rant on here about a well respected shop is beyond me. There are much bigger things in life to get worked up about, life is too short Keep smiling!
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In reply to ablackett:
Interesting, surely that means a portaledge would be eligible for a discount then, unless it was a special offer or a sale item? I don't know if terms and conditions given on a website have to be honoured or not. The wording is clearly different from what Stephen said in his initial reply...
> From the website "are eligible for a 10% discount on all purchases except for books, maps, videos, DVDs, CDs, special offers, sale items and certain low margin electrical goods"
Interesting, surely that means a portaledge would be eligible for a discount then, unless it was a special offer or a sale item? I don't know if terms and conditions given on a website have to be honoured or not. The wording is clearly different from what Stephen said in his initial reply...
> "and certain low margin items such as electronic equipment etc"
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In reply to saclimber2000:
I think Needlesports have been fair and reasonable, and your kind of attitude will only encourage Needlesports to take the line that Outside has and stop doing BMC discounts, so STFU.
I think Needlesports have been fair and reasonable, and your kind of attitude will only encourage Needlesports to take the line that Outside has and stop doing BMC discounts, so STFU.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
I don't think BMC discount creates any form of loyalty to a shop as climbing shops basically have to give it otherwise climbers shop elsewhere.
I've never come across anyone that goes to a specific shop because they give BMC discount, most climbers just expect it wherever they shop.
I don't think BMC discount creates any form of loyalty to a shop as climbing shops basically have to give it otherwise climbers shop elsewhere.
I've never come across anyone that goes to a specific shop because they give BMC discount, most climbers just expect it wherever they shop.
In reply to saclimber2000:
46 Dislikes to the OP and 82 Likes to NS reply says it all.
Edit : as of 13:00 Thurs
46 Dislikes to the OP and 82 Likes to NS reply says it all.
Edit : as of 13:00 Thurs
Post edited at 12:59
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In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
A shop is under no obligation to sell anything to you. An advertised price is merely an invitation to treat; it does not form an offer of sale (I think?) and so no contract is formed (even if you agree and throw money at them).
I don't think it is unreasonable for a shop to refuse to sell an item at a price where they will either lose money or make so little profit that they will probably lose money on overheads.
> Interesting, surely that means a portaledge would be eligible for a discount then, unless it was a special offer or a sale item? I don't know if terms and conditions given on a website have to be honoured or not. The wording is clearly different from what Stephen said in his initial reply...
A shop is under no obligation to sell anything to you. An advertised price is merely an invitation to treat; it does not form an offer of sale (I think?) and so no contract is formed (even if you agree and throw money at them).
I don't think it is unreasonable for a shop to refuse to sell an item at a price where they will either lose money or make so little profit that they will probably lose money on overheads.
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In reply to jonny taylor:
> But it sounds as if he was told on the phone that that was the policy, so no wasted trip.
Fair enough. Chap should probably let it drop then.
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
Neither do I, but I think the website should be updated to say as much. At the moment, I think you'd be hard to pressed to argue that it isn't misleading.
> I don't think it is unreasonable for a shop to refuse to sell an item at a price where they will either lose money or make so little profit that they will probably lose money on overheads.
Neither do I, but I think the website should be updated to say as much. At the moment, I think you'd be hard to pressed to argue that it isn't misleading.
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In reply to m0unt41n:
Possibly the most useless reply to this thread, but cheers for the immediately outdated information.
> 46 Dislikes to the OP and 82 Likes to NS reply says it all.
> Edit : as of 13:00 Thurs
Possibly the most useless reply to this thread, but cheers for the immediately outdated information.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
Brilliant put down from Stephen at NS.
Its nice that it brings the whole community of UKC together to vilify someone. Well done pal!
Another one with nothing but positive experience of NS, both in store and via the website. Keep up the good work, guys
Brilliant put down from Stephen at NS.
Its nice that it brings the whole community of UKC together to vilify someone. Well done pal!
Another one with nothing but positive experience of NS, both in store and via the website. Keep up the good work, guys
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In reply to saclimber2000:
Have never had any issues with Needle, and where they can, they always give the best price and the best advice. The Climbers Shop however....
Have never had any issues with Needle, and where they can, they always give the best price and the best advice. The Climbers Shop however....
In reply to saclimber2000:
I'm all for Internet shopping and searching out the best prices on the Internet. Climbers with lots of experience don't necessarily need advice on what they need to buy.
However, they do need somewhere to buy it from! I use Needlesports and don't question the price for the right item. Why? Because what other shop in the UK stocks 40 below overboots, proper down booties, nalgene bottle cosies etc
They were one of the first shops to stock the Baffin Island climbing and skiing guidebook.
The only other shop that could rival NS used to be Outside but even they have faded away in terms of properly specialist gear.
Needlesports is the last bastion of properly specialist equipment. It needs to be supported.
I'm all for Internet shopping and searching out the best prices on the Internet. Climbers with lots of experience don't necessarily need advice on what they need to buy.
However, they do need somewhere to buy it from! I use Needlesports and don't question the price for the right item. Why? Because what other shop in the UK stocks 40 below overboots, proper down booties, nalgene bottle cosies etc
They were one of the first shops to stock the Baffin Island climbing and skiing guidebook.
The only other shop that could rival NS used to be Outside but even they have faded away in terms of properly specialist gear.
Needlesports is the last bastion of properly specialist equipment. It needs to be supported.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
The BMC discount is actually a double edged sword. I'm sure there was a time for it years ago.
But the big chain stores have for years basically marked their prices up by 10% on the expectation that a lot of their customers will produce a discount card and bring the price back down to a proper level.
And those customers too stupid to realise will just pay an over inflated price - more fool them and a very corporate way of doing business.
Unfortunately the smaller shops whose prices rival the bigger chains after discount (even though they don't offer a further discount themselves) are seen as uncompetitive.
Of course you can now buy stuff from Europe for cheaper. But if you need to send it back you lose any savings with the hassle and cost of postage
The BMC discount is actually a double edged sword. I'm sure there was a time for it years ago.
But the big chain stores have for years basically marked their prices up by 10% on the expectation that a lot of their customers will produce a discount card and bring the price back down to a proper level.
And those customers too stupid to realise will just pay an over inflated price - more fool them and a very corporate way of doing business.
Unfortunately the smaller shops whose prices rival the bigger chains after discount (even though they don't offer a further discount themselves) are seen as uncompetitive.
Of course you can now buy stuff from Europe for cheaper. But if you need to send it back you lose any savings with the hassle and cost of postage
In reply to saclimber2000:
Mate, it's not just about the money.
I'm skint, but I still try and use shops like Needlesports, Aiguille, The Outdoor Shop, etc to buy my gear from. They've got an actual shop, they have got people who work there who need paying, extremely knowledgeable people. I wouldn't know, but I guess their profits are pretty thin, I'll bet a weeks wage that the blokes running them will never get super rich from doing it. I guess they worked fu##ing hard to get the business going and work fu##ing hard to keep it going. When I spend my money there it sort of makes me feel good that I'm doing my little, inconsequential bit for people that are grafting away, trying to earn a living, doing something they enjoy, and which must be really hard in this economic climate, which may come crashing down at any time. Too many independent outdoor shops are closing because times are hard for small independent shops, and I think that's really sad.
Now, like I said, I haven't got much money, but I still really try,(and admittedly sometimes fail), and buy stuff from real shops, that employ people, places where I know staff won't try and sell me the most expensive thing that I don't really need. And when I've actually looked into it, the amount I can save buying from a web only, or chain outfit is often quite small, sometimes negligible, occasionally non-existent.
We've got an independent bike shop a bit like that here in my town. I take my bike to be serviced there, knowing it will cost me a few quid more than taking it to Evans. But I know I'll get a top notch job from people who are passionate and skilled in what they do. I also know, through experience, that they will never sell me something I don't really need. They have sent me away empty handed when I walked in determined to spend money in their shop, or with a less expensive item than the one I thought I 'needed'. Some may call this stupid business sense, but I call it brilliant, because I then recommend them to everyone I talk to, they then in turn give the shop their custom. Sometimes their stuff is a bit more expensive than I could get it online, but sometimes it isn't. I know the stuff they sell is top quality, and the person advising me really knows their stuff, is passionate about the subject and will spend time with me advising me on the best product. Call me an idealistic knobhead, but that is something I don't mind paying a few quid extra for.
Needlesports is like that in my eyes. And to be honest, I've always found their prices to be competitive.
So, mate, you're trying to slate a shop that's a bit of an institution, over saving fifty quid for a £500 bit of gear, that I love to do business with, who employs climbers/walkers, who I think provide great products, at competitive prices, and who provide a fantastic service. So in my humble opinion, that makes you a dick.
Just my opinion of course.....I realise it maybe me that's the dick here! Wouldn't be the first time.
Cheers,
Simon.
Mate, it's not just about the money.
I'm skint, but I still try and use shops like Needlesports, Aiguille, The Outdoor Shop, etc to buy my gear from. They've got an actual shop, they have got people who work there who need paying, extremely knowledgeable people. I wouldn't know, but I guess their profits are pretty thin, I'll bet a weeks wage that the blokes running them will never get super rich from doing it. I guess they worked fu##ing hard to get the business going and work fu##ing hard to keep it going. When I spend my money there it sort of makes me feel good that I'm doing my little, inconsequential bit for people that are grafting away, trying to earn a living, doing something they enjoy, and which must be really hard in this economic climate, which may come crashing down at any time. Too many independent outdoor shops are closing because times are hard for small independent shops, and I think that's really sad.
Now, like I said, I haven't got much money, but I still really try,(and admittedly sometimes fail), and buy stuff from real shops, that employ people, places where I know staff won't try and sell me the most expensive thing that I don't really need. And when I've actually looked into it, the amount I can save buying from a web only, or chain outfit is often quite small, sometimes negligible, occasionally non-existent.
We've got an independent bike shop a bit like that here in my town. I take my bike to be serviced there, knowing it will cost me a few quid more than taking it to Evans. But I know I'll get a top notch job from people who are passionate and skilled in what they do. I also know, through experience, that they will never sell me something I don't really need. They have sent me away empty handed when I walked in determined to spend money in their shop, or with a less expensive item than the one I thought I 'needed'. Some may call this stupid business sense, but I call it brilliant, because I then recommend them to everyone I talk to, they then in turn give the shop their custom. Sometimes their stuff is a bit more expensive than I could get it online, but sometimes it isn't. I know the stuff they sell is top quality, and the person advising me really knows their stuff, is passionate about the subject and will spend time with me advising me on the best product. Call me an idealistic knobhead, but that is something I don't mind paying a few quid extra for.
Needlesports is like that in my eyes. And to be honest, I've always found their prices to be competitive.
So, mate, you're trying to slate a shop that's a bit of an institution, over saving fifty quid for a £500 bit of gear, that I love to do business with, who employs climbers/walkers, who I think provide great products, at competitive prices, and who provide a fantastic service. So in my humble opinion, that makes you a dick.
Just my opinion of course.....I realise it maybe me that's the dick here! Wouldn't be the first time.
Cheers,
Simon.
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In reply to steveej:
What pish. Distributors set rrp. Shops exceeding it wouldn't last long.
We are now getting exactly the outdoor shops we deserve ... low brow generalists looking to push margin. Why? Because none of us actually value service and we all buy our big ticket items for the cheapest possible source.
> But the big chain stores have for years basically marked their prices up by 10%
What pish. Distributors set rrp. Shops exceeding it wouldn't last long.
We are now getting exactly the outdoor shops we deserve ... low brow generalists looking to push margin. Why? Because none of us actually value service and we all buy our big ticket items for the cheapest possible source.
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In reply to Aonach:
Cough cough, Cotswold outdoors? Possibly less true now but historically their business model was to hike prices so they could discount for lots of groups (enablers, climbers, d of e, forces etc)
> What pish. Distributors set rrp. Shops exceeding it wouldn't last long.
> We are now getting exactly the outdoor shops we deserve ... low brow generalists looking to push margin. Why? Because none of us actually value service and we all buy our big ticket items for the cheapest possible source.
Cough cough, Cotswold outdoors? Possibly less true now but historically their business model was to hike prices so they could discount for lots of groups (enablers, climbers, d of e, forces etc)
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
I brought my first set of cams from Needlesports online, they still sent them even though the cheque I paid with bounced (not my fault, just a timing issue). You dont get customer service like this often
I brought my first set of cams from Needlesports online, they still sent them even though the cheque I paid with bounced (not my fault, just a timing issue). You dont get customer service like this often
In reply to angry pirate:
Maybe historically. Now, cotswold normally sell for RRP just like anyone else. Annoyingly, since they give a 15% BMC discount, in my experience they come out cheapest more often than not, unless you manage to find a sale somewhere else.
I still try not to buy from them to keep the independents going, but they do undercut.
> Cough cough, Cotswold outdoors? Possibly less true now but historically their business model was to hike prices so they could discount for lots of groups (enablers, climbers, d of e, forces etc)
Maybe historically. Now, cotswold normally sell for RRP just like anyone else. Annoyingly, since they give a 15% BMC discount, in my experience they come out cheapest more often than not, unless you manage to find a sale somewhere else.
I still try not to buy from them to keep the independents going, but they do undercut.
In reply to angry pirate:
How historically do you mean? We used to use them a lot in the early 90s, when we got contract rates (varied between about 10 and 25%) through our club. At that time their standard prices were similar to everyone else's.
> Cough cough, Cotswold outdoors? Possibly less true now but historically their business model was to hike prices so they could discount for lots of groups (enablers, climbers, d of e, forces etc)
How historically do you mean? We used to use them a lot in the early 90s, when we got contract rates (varied between about 10 and 25%) through our club. At that time their standard prices were similar to everyone else's.
In reply to Aonach:
Who mentioned RRP? I think you will find that distributors and manufacturers will normally work together to set RRP, but that doesn't mean a shop will sell an item for RRP. RRP is a Recommended Retail Price, but the retailer will ultimately set prices based on what they think they can get away with.
There are a number of independent shops (who don't give BMC discount) whose prices will more or less match the prices of the big chains after discount.
Who mentioned RRP? I think you will find that distributors and manufacturers will normally work together to set RRP, but that doesn't mean a shop will sell an item for RRP. RRP is a Recommended Retail Price, but the retailer will ultimately set prices based on what they think they can get away with.
There are a number of independent shops (who don't give BMC discount) whose prices will more or less match the prices of the big chains after discount.
In reply to saclimber2000:
I am sorry to hear that you wont shop at Needlesports again or recommend them to anyone. I have no financial or other connection with the shop, apart from being a very satisfied customer. The items they stock are well chosen, you get great advice on the website and in person in the shop and their service standards are extremely high. Their prices seem very reasonable. Its one of the few proper climbing shops left in the UK. I try to buy most of my kit from them.
The BMC may need to reflect on its "discount" policies. It would be a real shame if these were propping up mass retailers.
I am sorry to hear that you wont shop at Needlesports again or recommend them to anyone. I have no financial or other connection with the shop, apart from being a very satisfied customer. The items they stock are well chosen, you get great advice on the website and in person in the shop and their service standards are extremely high. Their prices seem very reasonable. Its one of the few proper climbing shops left in the UK. I try to buy most of my kit from them.
The BMC may need to reflect on its "discount" policies. It would be a real shame if these were propping up mass retailers.
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In reply to philipjardine:
What do you mean by that?
> The BMC may need to reflect on its "discount" policies. It would be a real shame if these were propping up mass retailers.
What do you mean by that?
In reply to saclimber2000:
As you will have realised, the majority of climbers seem to value the service of specialist shops such as Needle Sports, Outside, V12 etc. Being well placed as they are, offering the service/advice they do, why would you expect them to compete with an internet only presence head on? Good service has a value.
You have a right to spend your money as you please. But was a rant really called for?
As you will have realised, the majority of climbers seem to value the service of specialist shops such as Needle Sports, Outside, V12 etc. Being well placed as they are, offering the service/advice they do, why would you expect them to compete with an internet only presence head on? Good service has a value.
You have a right to spend your money as you please. But was a rant really called for?
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
What a great reply Stephen. I hope you don't really get too many customers acting like arses.
What a great reply Stephen. I hope you don't really get too many customers acting like arses.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
You're off to Yosemite (or somewhere) and you're pissed off about fifty quid?
Is your annoyance with NS or the BMC?
You're off to Yosemite (or somewhere) and you're pissed off about fifty quid?
Is your annoyance with NS or the BMC?
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
Hey Stephen, I like your shop and have never been disappointed. I think everyone here sees a pretty logical reason why a shop might not be able to blanket discount every item. You guys were upfront about the matter and we can all see through the O.P's slightly over the top rant.
I think parts of this reply were a little unnecessary. Just anything that goes beyond the rationale of not being able to offer the discount seems a little needless to me. Perhaps you could manage expectations of the discount slightly better, that's what I'd take from this if I were in your shoes.
Anyway, on the quoted passages, its fine to embrace the free market but seems that it stops short of allowing customers to price compare or to haggle? Surely that competition is what keeps prices down for customers, your shop will have undercut other shops as customers buy online off you. I'm positive you will source equipment and services for your shop in a price sensitive way aswell. I'm not sure why price comparing or haggling is frowned upon, particularly when consumers do it. I don't think you and your staff should look down on these customers, they are trying to obtain the best price, just as you're trying to make a profit.
> Firstly, everyone in business is trying to make a profit.
> Of course, when a customer’s opening remark is along the lines of, “I can get one from a German website for £480 so what discount are you going to give me?” that customer is not exactly going to endear themselves to the staff, and sadly we get rather too much of this kind of approach.
Hey Stephen, I like your shop and have never been disappointed. I think everyone here sees a pretty logical reason why a shop might not be able to blanket discount every item. You guys were upfront about the matter and we can all see through the O.P's slightly over the top rant.
I think parts of this reply were a little unnecessary. Just anything that goes beyond the rationale of not being able to offer the discount seems a little needless to me. Perhaps you could manage expectations of the discount slightly better, that's what I'd take from this if I were in your shoes.
Anyway, on the quoted passages, its fine to embrace the free market but seems that it stops short of allowing customers to price compare or to haggle? Surely that competition is what keeps prices down for customers, your shop will have undercut other shops as customers buy online off you. I'm positive you will source equipment and services for your shop in a price sensitive way aswell. I'm not sure why price comparing or haggling is frowned upon, particularly when consumers do it. I don't think you and your staff should look down on these customers, they are trying to obtain the best price, just as you're trying to make a profit.
Post edited at 17:04
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In reply to FreshSlate:
Haggling in an outdoor shop is unseemly and embarrassing. It marks the haggler out as a bin-raking tosser.
Haggling in an outdoor shop is unseemly and embarrassing. It marks the haggler out as a bin-raking tosser.
Post edited at 06:23
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In reply to saclimber2000:
Needlesports is a bit of a cult on here I'm afraid. Even if your complaint had been less rant and more generally about bmc discounts, you would still receive a flurry of posts such as you have.
I do wonder if there is a silent majority though. I had terrible customer service from them a few years back and when I complained (on the phone and by email) I received the same, patronising and dismissive response you have on here. I just avoid them now.
Needlesports is a bit of a cult on here I'm afraid. Even if your complaint had been less rant and more generally about bmc discounts, you would still receive a flurry of posts such as you have.
I do wonder if there is a silent majority though. I had terrible customer service from them a few years back and when I complained (on the phone and by email) I received the same, patronising and dismissive response you have on here. I just avoid them now.
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In reply to XXXX:
Isn't it more likely that Needlesports has a lot of good will from giving lots of people good service over a long time? Every one/company is capable of having bad days, but I'm sure there were two sides to your story too. But of course, you have an absolute right to shop elsewhere, so it sounds like you have the right solution for you.
> Needlesports is a bit of a cult on here I'm afraid.
Isn't it more likely that Needlesports has a lot of good will from giving lots of people good service over a long time? Every one/company is capable of having bad days, but I'm sure there were two sides to your story too. But of course, you have an absolute right to shop elsewhere, so it sounds like you have the right solution for you.
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In reply to TobyA:
Yes, the support for Needlesports on here is based on many years' superb service. While there are two sides to every story, we have heard both sides and Needlesports' side of the story is much the better one.
Yes, the support for Needlesports on here is based on many years' superb service. While there are two sides to every story, we have heard both sides and Needlesports' side of the story is much the better one.
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In reply to saclimber2000:
Sounding pretty entitled there... the ratio of likes:dislikes currently 1:23 suggests that you're not riding a winner here.
I divide gear purchases into two groups - local (specialty, urgent or whim) versus planned cheap as possible (research). I don't think I'm alone in this. Given that you are probably flying in to SFO or LAX, if the money is so important just pick one up from REI (probably 400 quid including the dividend). Alternatively, enjoy the experience of going to a specialist retailer with a fund of knowledge and experience, a wide range of gear for most occasions, and wear a small price increase in return.
I usually say something along the lines of "If I ask nicely, any chance of a discount?" with a smile - usually I get a smile back and a no, with a "well it was worth a go I guess". No one has hit me yet and sometimes it works, generally if I have had a good yarn with them. I don't feel bad for asking and they don't appear to be offended.
b
Sounding pretty entitled there... the ratio of likes:dislikes currently 1:23 suggests that you're not riding a winner here.
I divide gear purchases into two groups - local (specialty, urgent or whim) versus planned cheap as possible (research). I don't think I'm alone in this. Given that you are probably flying in to SFO or LAX, if the money is so important just pick one up from REI (probably 400 quid including the dividend). Alternatively, enjoy the experience of going to a specialist retailer with a fund of knowledge and experience, a wide range of gear for most occasions, and wear a small price increase in return.
I usually say something along the lines of "If I ask nicely, any chance of a discount?" with a smile - usually I get a smile back and a no, with a "well it was worth a go I guess". No one has hit me yet and sometimes it works, generally if I have had a good yarn with them. I don't feel bad for asking and they don't appear to be offended.
b
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In reply to TobyA:
Of course it's likely that many people have had good service from Needlesports over long periods or it wouldn't still be trading. But, along with Alpkit, it does seem to have somewhat of a protected status on the forum, in that criticism isn't tolerated. My personal experience is that it's ok, but no better than many other independent shops of all descriptions up and down the country and in terms of its online experience, is actually quite poor.
I have no intention of getting into a huge debate over it, but I thought the OP was getting a lot of grief based mostly on the shop criticised, rather than the detail of the complaint. That said, I wouldn't have posted my complaint on a forum, it's a bit odd.
Of course it's likely that many people have had good service from Needlesports over long periods or it wouldn't still be trading. But, along with Alpkit, it does seem to have somewhat of a protected status on the forum, in that criticism isn't tolerated. My personal experience is that it's ok, but no better than many other independent shops of all descriptions up and down the country and in terms of its online experience, is actually quite poor.
I have no intention of getting into a huge debate over it, but I thought the OP was getting a lot of grief based mostly on the shop criticised, rather than the detail of the complaint. That said, I wouldn't have posted my complaint on a forum, it's a bit odd.
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In reply to XXXX:
I think the OP is being challenged mainly because of the unreasonableness of the substance of his position combined with the sneery, whiny tone of how he has expressed it.
I think the OP is being challenged mainly because of the unreasonableness of the substance of his position combined with the sneery, whiny tone of how he has expressed it.
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
Out of interest the OP's point was that you advertize a BMC discount along with a number of exclusions. The item the OP wanted wasn't covered by any of those exclusions so it seems perfectly reasonable that they were frustrated at not getting the BMC discount they thought they would.
As you didn't cover this in your answer please would you state for future reference what Needle Sports policy is on the BMC discount to avoid any potential future frustration.
Thanks
Out of interest the OP's point was that you advertize a BMC discount along with a number of exclusions. The item the OP wanted wasn't covered by any of those exclusions so it seems perfectly reasonable that they were frustrated at not getting the BMC discount they thought they would.
As you didn't cover this in your answer please would you state for future reference what Needle Sports policy is on the BMC discount to avoid any potential future frustration.
Thanks
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In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
In reply to steveej:
While I'm happy enough to get discounts, I don't *expect* them anywhere. I'm not a member of the BMC, but the MCofS, which has similar arrangements for discounts to members. As do several other climbing, sailing, running and conservation bodies to which I belong... to the extent (and call me 'stupid' here if you like!) that I'm not even fully aware of who brings what. But some shops do it, some don't and some do it but don't know they do, and I'm not a member of anything just to get discounts. I've also been shopping at Needle Sports for years, never been in a position to ask for a discount because I'm talking mail order and can't just pop into the shop, but still regard them as consistently amongst the best retailers I've dealt with.
> I don't think BMC discount creates any form of loyalty to a shop as climbing shops basically have to give it otherwise climbers shop elsewhere.
> I've never come across anyone that goes to a specific shop because they give BMC discount, most climbers just expect it wherever they shop.
In reply to steveej:
> And those customers too stupid to realise will just pay an over inflated price - more fool them and a very corporate way of doing business.
While I'm happy enough to get discounts, I don't *expect* them anywhere. I'm not a member of the BMC, but the MCofS, which has similar arrangements for discounts to members. As do several other climbing, sailing, running and conservation bodies to which I belong... to the extent (and call me 'stupid' here if you like!) that I'm not even fully aware of who brings what. But some shops do it, some don't and some do it but don't know they do, and I'm not a member of anything just to get discounts. I've also been shopping at Needle Sports for years, never been in a position to ask for a discount because I'm talking mail order and can't just pop into the shop, but still regard them as consistently amongst the best retailers I've dealt with.
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In reply to XXXX:
I like Alpkit too, but I also have a long geeky blog post criticising their Numo pad (well - explaining why they don't work very well)!
But again, I think the pro-Alpkit sentiments are similar, they are very friendly and pro-customer when you deal with them and they given many people the chance to buy gear they might not have been able to afford previously.
I like Alpkit too, but I also have a long geeky blog post criticising their Numo pad (well - explaining why they don't work very well)!
But again, I think the pro-Alpkit sentiments are similar, they are very friendly and pro-customer when you deal with them and they given many people the chance to buy gear they might not have been able to afford previously.
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In reply to timbers:
Great post. I feel the same and always buy something from shops who offer good service and advice. Sadly we seem to be in the minority otherwise such shops would thrive. I'm not anti-Cotswold either, as the local branch employed very knowledgable climbers and the manager sorted out good deals on our Uni club gear purchases for the last few years I was gear secretary (we tried to prioritise independants but they kept closing, or the ones a bit further away sometimes let us down). Needlesports has always been up with the top places I've used but was a bit far for our main club events. Maybe we need an RIP thread for great shops we lost.
Great post. I feel the same and always buy something from shops who offer good service and advice. Sadly we seem to be in the minority otherwise such shops would thrive. I'm not anti-Cotswold either, as the local branch employed very knowledgable climbers and the manager sorted out good deals on our Uni club gear purchases for the last few years I was gear secretary (we tried to prioritise independants but they kept closing, or the ones a bit further away sometimes let us down). Needlesports has always been up with the top places I've used but was a bit far for our main club events. Maybe we need an RIP thread for great shops we lost.
In reply to Aonach:
No doubt this view is taken by a few on here. However, why is it frowned upon?
Is it something in particular about the outdoor industry? Why is being price sensitive so tabboo in our small world?
> Haggling in an outdoor shop is unseemly and embarrassing. It marks the haggler out as a bin-raking tosser.
No doubt this view is taken by a few on here. However, why is it frowned upon?
Is it something in particular about the outdoor industry? Why is being price sensitive so tabboo in our small world?
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In reply to FreshSlate:
So whenever you go to a shop - any shop - you always try to haggle the price down? Really?
> However, why is it frowned upon? Is it something in particular about the outdoor industry? Why is being price sensitive so tabboo in our small world?
So whenever you go to a shop - any shop - you always try to haggle the price down? Really?
In reply to jon:
Is that what you thought I said?
The shops one can't haggle in you simply compare prices and vote with your feet - another thing which is also frowned upon in the climbing world. No one supports the position of paying an extra 50 quid for a item that you could get cheaper elsewhere when it comes to anything else. On this thread you see exactly that position being the majority.
Does that not strike you as odd?
> So whenever you go to a shop - any shop - you always try to haggle the price down? Really?
Is that what you thought I said?
The shops one can't haggle in you simply compare prices and vote with your feet - another thing which is also frowned upon in the climbing world. No one supports the position of paying an extra 50 quid for a item that you could get cheaper elsewhere when it comes to anything else. On this thread you see exactly that position being the majority.
Does that not strike you as odd?
Post edited at 13:41
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In reply to FreshSlate:
You don't just pay for the item though, do you: you pay for the item, the advice on it (so you don't waste valuable time and money buying the wrong thing or misusing it or returning it) and the returns policy. Modern climbers who need advice are both stupid and dishonest if they are happy taking the advice from the shop, then buying cheaper on line, as the shop will not be able to continue if everyone does that. If your situation means you need to buy cheap you buy second-hand or wait for the sales.
You don't just pay for the item though, do you: you pay for the item, the advice on it (so you don't waste valuable time and money buying the wrong thing or misusing it or returning it) and the returns policy. Modern climbers who need advice are both stupid and dishonest if they are happy taking the advice from the shop, then buying cheaper on line, as the shop will not be able to continue if everyone does that. If your situation means you need to buy cheap you buy second-hand or wait for the sales.
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In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Something on a website is an "invitation to treat" and no contract is formed by it until the contract is accepted. Therefore such a thing is not legally binding.
However now it has been identified as being wrong, if the OP has pointed it out to them I would think it good customer service to (a) honour it in that instance and take the hit, and (b) immediately correct the website so it does express correctly which goods will receive a discount.
If they fail to do (b), then they are marked well down in my reckoning. Mistakes are understandable, wilfully (or negligently) not resolving them is very poor service indeed.
Neil
> Interesting, surely that means a portaledge would be eligible for a discount then, unless it was a special offer or a sale item? I don't know if terms and conditions given on a website have to be honoured or not. The wording is clearly different from what Stephen said in his initial reply...
Something on a website is an "invitation to treat" and no contract is formed by it until the contract is accepted. Therefore such a thing is not legally binding.
However now it has been identified as being wrong, if the OP has pointed it out to them I would think it good customer service to (a) honour it in that instance and take the hit, and (b) immediately correct the website so it does express correctly which goods will receive a discount.
If they fail to do (b), then they are marked well down in my reckoning. Mistakes are understandable, wilfully (or negligently) not resolving them is very poor service indeed.
Neil
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
Why should a savvy customer *not* try that approach, even if your response is to explain politely why you cannot offer such a low price? If you take offence at that, I'd suggest you probably need to worry a little less about it. It's simply good business sense to try to negotiate the best price.
Neil
> Of course, when a customer’s opening remark is along the lines of, “I can get one from a German website for £480 so what discount are you going to give me?” that customer is not exactly going to endear themselves to the staff, and sadly we get rather too much of this kind of approach.
Why should a savvy customer *not* try that approach, even if your response is to explain politely why you cannot offer such a low price? If you take offence at that, I'd suggest you probably need to worry a little less about it. It's simply good business sense to try to negotiate the best price.
Neil
Post edited at 14:11
In reply to Offwidth:
That's true. You don't just pay for the item. Although a lot of climbers surely aren't paying for advice, as they have researched and simply want an item for the best price possible. This means there is certainly a place in the market for internet shops (like needlesports) who profit from people not requiring a staff member to advise them.
Still, there must be a level of service, speedy delivery, a robust returns policy, adequate communication of out of stock items, a selection of convenient payment options, a good functioning website etc. I think shops without an internet presence will struggle and I don't think those shops that do use the internet are evil either. Just customers are changing the way they purchase goods, if climbing shops can't keep up some will go out of business.
Looking in one shop then buying something elsewhere happens, whether that be on the web or over the road, lots of people also browse without buying things. I might have visited 5 or 6 shops before buying a pair of shoes (not climbing), perhaps even wasting staff's time before finding the pair I want. It's a part of operating any shop.
> You don't just pay for the item though, do you: you pay for the item, the advice on it (so you don't waste valuable time and money buying the wrong thing or misusing it or returning it) and the returns policy. Modern climbers who need advice are both stupid and dishonest if they are happy taking the advice from the shop, then buying cheaper on line, as the shop will not be able to continue if everyone does that. If your situation means you need to buy cheap you buy second-hand or wait for the sales.
That's true. You don't just pay for the item. Although a lot of climbers surely aren't paying for advice, as they have researched and simply want an item for the best price possible. This means there is certainly a place in the market for internet shops (like needlesports) who profit from people not requiring a staff member to advise them.
Still, there must be a level of service, speedy delivery, a robust returns policy, adequate communication of out of stock items, a selection of convenient payment options, a good functioning website etc. I think shops without an internet presence will struggle and I don't think those shops that do use the internet are evil either. Just customers are changing the way they purchase goods, if climbing shops can't keep up some will go out of business.
Looking in one shop then buying something elsewhere happens, whether that be on the web or over the road, lots of people also browse without buying things. I might have visited 5 or 6 shops before buying a pair of shoes (not climbing), perhaps even wasting staff's time before finding the pair I want. It's a part of operating any shop.
1
In reply to ericinbristol:
Sorry but Needle Sports HASN'T answered the issue the OP had namely what appears the complexly arbitrary way in which a discount is being or not as the case is applied.
Maybe Needle Sports would like to clarify it's position? Or maybe it wouldn't?
> we have heard both sides and Needlesports' side of the story is much the better one.
Sorry but Needle Sports HASN'T answered the issue the OP had namely what appears the complexly arbitrary way in which a discount is being or not as the case is applied.
Maybe Needle Sports would like to clarify it's position? Or maybe it wouldn't?
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In reply to Indy:
Emmm yes they have. They have offered a discount with caveats on certain types of item. They exercised the caveat. Greedy, graspy chap was offended.
Emmm yes they have. They have offered a discount with caveats on certain types of item. They exercised the caveat. Greedy, graspy chap was offended.
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In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
At least you can always read this and remember the love that came because of this thread. When did climbing take on all these barrack room lawyers?
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=618129
At least you can always read this and remember the love that came because of this thread. When did climbing take on all these barrack room lawyers?
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=618129
1
To all who have contributed to this thread, I am sorry that I haven't replied to your queries sooner but I have been away for the last few days.
Firstly, thank you for the accolades, they make humbling reading. We are proud to be an independent small business, as I am sure are the other similar retailers in the trade such as Outside, V12, The Climber's Shop, Joe Brown's etc, many of whose owners are personal friends. In fact, we don't really view them as competition, more as fellow David's in the battle against the outdoor Goliaths. We certainly don’t view ourselves as superior to them and we are only too aware of our own flaws and failings and try our best to overcome them.
The reason that the outdoor gear multiple outlet megastores can offer such low prices is the same reason that supermarkets can undercut corner shops. They have massive buying power, professional buyers (the rottweiler’s of the outdoor trade) whose job is to use whatever means they can to “negotiate” (read threaten, storm, bluster) as low a price as they can, they keep their wages bill as minimal as possible (low staffing, zero hours contracts in some cases) and they are not above other supermarket tricks such as announcing to all their suppliers that they will only be paying 90% of money owed on all outstanding invoices (as did one huge retail chain a while back). Most UK importers and manufacturers are too small to risk calling their bluff and meekly buckle under to this corporate bullying. Moreover, many of the people running these enormous concerns have never been near a crag or mountain in their life, except possibly for a bit of downhill skiing.
Small independents on the other hand are run by people who probably spend far too much time climbing and don't devote enough of it to business studies. They are generally nice folk who might ask their suppliers for a bit of discount on account of the volume of trade they do and then will be delighted with 5% or 10% when the multiples are screwing them down to 15% or 20%. They tend to pay their staff well and look on them as friends and climbing partners. They don't pat them down at the end of the day to check for stolen kit as one of our neighbouring shops recently taken over by one of the giants of the UK sports trade apparently does! They try very hard to stock a really good range of climbing gear and other outdoor stuff but the cost involved is enormous and I would be surprised if most of them don't operate on a worryingly large overdraft for much of the year. They try their best to compete with all the other shops but it is hard sometimes when the competition is the likes of Decathalon or Go Outdoors both of whom have loads of their own label stuff at bargain prices that can't be matched by the branded products available to those who don’t have the financial clout to go direct to China.
The trick to survival in these shark-infested waters is to stay true to your specialist roots and try and stock products and brands that the big boys don't bother with. This is easier if you understand their usage and the need for them and the competition doesn't, which fortunately for the few surviving independents is often the case. However, many of these niche products have very low margins, such that giving a BMC discount would make holding the item in stock unprofitable (it is a different thing when ordering something in specially for a customer, as in that case there is no financial outlay until the item has been paid for). Sadly, the long list of small shops that have ceased trading (as highlighted on another thread) shows that this battle is largely being lost and the supermarkets are winning.
I write none of the above out of a wish for pity, merely to explain what goes on behind the scenes for those who don’t know.
With regard to specifics, the complainant made a reasonable request and received a reasonable answer. It is what followed after that was unreasonable to my mind. Possibly if he had been slightly more understanding and friendlier in his approach things might have panned out differently – who knows? People are of course free to shop around but I’m afraid it does become very tedious when the nth person who you have just been fitting with boots for an hour and a half and sorted out with exactly what they need announces that they can get the same thing from bargainbasementclimbinggear.com (who don’t have a shop and don’t do any sort of boot fitting) at 20% cheaper and they expect you to match the price. But, as I wrote originally, fortunately most customers are not like this, and, in fact many become friends who just pop in for a chat about climbing as often as not. This is actually far more fun than selling things (told you I should spend more time on business studies!)
Our website was wrong with regard to BMC discounts, I should have changed it a while ago and for this I apologise. It has now been updated to reflect the current situation which is that there maybe items of all sorts that are ineligible for a BMC discount. I am afraid that my eye was off the ball as we are developing a new website that will work better on mobile phones and tablets. Hopefully we will not throw the baby out with the bathwater and lose the bits of the current website that many of you like. And we will try to keep such non-discountable items to a minimum, but I am afraid that it is either treat them as we do or don’t bother stocking them and we’d rather stock them if they are important to the mountaineering world that we all love and enjoy.
Firstly, thank you for the accolades, they make humbling reading. We are proud to be an independent small business, as I am sure are the other similar retailers in the trade such as Outside, V12, The Climber's Shop, Joe Brown's etc, many of whose owners are personal friends. In fact, we don't really view them as competition, more as fellow David's in the battle against the outdoor Goliaths. We certainly don’t view ourselves as superior to them and we are only too aware of our own flaws and failings and try our best to overcome them.
The reason that the outdoor gear multiple outlet megastores can offer such low prices is the same reason that supermarkets can undercut corner shops. They have massive buying power, professional buyers (the rottweiler’s of the outdoor trade) whose job is to use whatever means they can to “negotiate” (read threaten, storm, bluster) as low a price as they can, they keep their wages bill as minimal as possible (low staffing, zero hours contracts in some cases) and they are not above other supermarket tricks such as announcing to all their suppliers that they will only be paying 90% of money owed on all outstanding invoices (as did one huge retail chain a while back). Most UK importers and manufacturers are too small to risk calling their bluff and meekly buckle under to this corporate bullying. Moreover, many of the people running these enormous concerns have never been near a crag or mountain in their life, except possibly for a bit of downhill skiing.
Small independents on the other hand are run by people who probably spend far too much time climbing and don't devote enough of it to business studies. They are generally nice folk who might ask their suppliers for a bit of discount on account of the volume of trade they do and then will be delighted with 5% or 10% when the multiples are screwing them down to 15% or 20%. They tend to pay their staff well and look on them as friends and climbing partners. They don't pat them down at the end of the day to check for stolen kit as one of our neighbouring shops recently taken over by one of the giants of the UK sports trade apparently does! They try very hard to stock a really good range of climbing gear and other outdoor stuff but the cost involved is enormous and I would be surprised if most of them don't operate on a worryingly large overdraft for much of the year. They try their best to compete with all the other shops but it is hard sometimes when the competition is the likes of Decathalon or Go Outdoors both of whom have loads of their own label stuff at bargain prices that can't be matched by the branded products available to those who don’t have the financial clout to go direct to China.
The trick to survival in these shark-infested waters is to stay true to your specialist roots and try and stock products and brands that the big boys don't bother with. This is easier if you understand their usage and the need for them and the competition doesn't, which fortunately for the few surviving independents is often the case. However, many of these niche products have very low margins, such that giving a BMC discount would make holding the item in stock unprofitable (it is a different thing when ordering something in specially for a customer, as in that case there is no financial outlay until the item has been paid for). Sadly, the long list of small shops that have ceased trading (as highlighted on another thread) shows that this battle is largely being lost and the supermarkets are winning.
I write none of the above out of a wish for pity, merely to explain what goes on behind the scenes for those who don’t know.
With regard to specifics, the complainant made a reasonable request and received a reasonable answer. It is what followed after that was unreasonable to my mind. Possibly if he had been slightly more understanding and friendlier in his approach things might have panned out differently – who knows? People are of course free to shop around but I’m afraid it does become very tedious when the nth person who you have just been fitting with boots for an hour and a half and sorted out with exactly what they need announces that they can get the same thing from bargainbasementclimbinggear.com (who don’t have a shop and don’t do any sort of boot fitting) at 20% cheaper and they expect you to match the price. But, as I wrote originally, fortunately most customers are not like this, and, in fact many become friends who just pop in for a chat about climbing as often as not. This is actually far more fun than selling things (told you I should spend more time on business studies!)
Our website was wrong with regard to BMC discounts, I should have changed it a while ago and for this I apologise. It has now been updated to reflect the current situation which is that there maybe items of all sorts that are ineligible for a BMC discount. I am afraid that my eye was off the ball as we are developing a new website that will work better on mobile phones and tablets. Hopefully we will not throw the baby out with the bathwater and lose the bits of the current website that many of you like. And we will try to keep such non-discountable items to a minimum, but I am afraid that it is either treat them as we do or don’t bother stocking them and we’d rather stock them if they are important to the mountaineering world that we all love and enjoy.
44
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
Hopefully the supportive sentiment in this thread translates into increased sales for you.
Hopefully the supportive sentiment in this thread translates into increased sales for you.
In reply to saclimber2000:
Support your small retailer! The second best shop in the UK after Needlesports recently went out of business in Newcastle as have many others, around the country. This is because some of the big national "supermarket " type Outdoor retailers are purposely undercutting them, and have a policy to put small retailers out of business, by offerring to undercut any other offer you can find.
This effectively creates a near monopoly as has virtually happened in my area.
The small retailers provide a better service, better advice and usually a better stock of specialist climbing gear, and they dont usually sell crap.
After realising this I prefer to pay a little extra to keep the small retailer in business.
Support your small retailer! The second best shop in the UK after Needlesports recently went out of business in Newcastle as have many others, around the country. This is because some of the big national "supermarket " type Outdoor retailers are purposely undercutting them, and have a policy to put small retailers out of business, by offerring to undercut any other offer you can find.
This effectively creates a near monopoly as has virtually happened in my area.
The small retailers provide a better service, better advice and usually a better stock of specialist climbing gear, and they dont usually sell crap.
After realising this I prefer to pay a little extra to keep the small retailer in business.
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
I thought he rang you up and asked for a discount? I was not aware that he wasted your time for hours looking at the portaledge. Or is this example just a bit off?
> With regard to specifics, the complainant made a reasonable request and received a reasonable answer. I’m afraid it does become very tedious when the nth person who you have just been fitting with boots for an hour and a half and sorted out with exactly what they need announces that they can get the same thing from bargainbasementclimbinggear.com (who don’t have a shop and don’t do any sort of boot fitting) at 20% cheaper and they expect you to match the price.
I thought he rang you up and asked for a discount? I was not aware that he wasted your time for hours looking at the portaledge. Or is this example just a bit off?
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