People that belay standing up with anchors at the ankles

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 CurlyStevo 09 Jun 2015

At the top of climbs taking up the second - not uncommonly older climbers with lots of experience, common to see slack in the rope to the anchors and belaying where either the brake hand is left off the rope or the rope is taken in the very old school way where the guide hand holds both the off brake and on brake part of the rope at the same time for a while (as per some of my older instructional books!), common to see the rope off brake more than on brake!. How would you feel being belayed like this? Ok because they are more experienced than you? Or perhaps they should just adapt to modern techniques?
Post edited at 21:44
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Can't be that bad if they managed to get old whilst belaying like you describe!

;~))
OP CurlyStevo 09 Jun 2015
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:

Maybe that's why they need new partners
 AlanLittle 09 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Given that a second on a not too slack rope generates almost no force, and if you have a decent stance the anchors are essentially just a backup, it wouldn't bother me too much.

In fact, for stance belaying a second who's climbing well within their ability and quickly, personally I'd almost prefer a waist belay to a device. But that might freak you out even more?
3
OP CurlyStevo 09 Jun 2015
In reply to AlanLittle:
I've seen people dragged over the edge when sitting down from a second falling off and loose belay anchors. You obviously don't know what you talking about when you say no force - it's nearly alway going to be more than body weight and sometimes applied with a little slack in the system and with a foward angle on it, why take the chance when better methods exist?

I've done plenty of winter seconding and leading on waste belays why would that freak me out when done correctly (anchor to the other side of brake hand and tight)
Post edited at 22:22
 BarrySW19 09 Jun 2015
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:
> Can't be that bad if they managed to get old whilst belaying like you describe!

Yeah, but did their climbing partners also reach old age?
Post edited at 22:20
 AlanLittle 09 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I've seen people dragged over the edge when sitting down from a second falling off and loose belay anchors.

I'm not surprised. You can't brace effectively sitting down.
5
OP CurlyStevo 09 Jun 2015
In reply to AlanLittle:
Sorry but you need to update your techniques. Clearly a case in point. You wouldn't pass any of the instructional courses doing that now a days. Anchors above the waste / fairly straight line from anchors to load direction is a different matter (assuming lines to anchors are tight)
Post edited at 22:28
 AlanLittle 09 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'm playing devil's advocate to a degree, but you do need to think about whether a full textbook approach is actually necessary in all situations.

> Anchors above the waste / fairly straight line from anchors

well duh, but my point is that if I'm belaying a second from above properly on any kind of body belay, there won't be much load to speak of on the anchors anyway regardless of where they are.
2
 John Kelly 09 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

not sure poor belaying is confined to oap's, plenty crap youths out there
OP CurlyStevo 09 Jun 2015
In reply to AlanLittle:
Why do you think recommended advice is to find a secure sitting position if the anchors are poor (say snow belay / bucket seat ). Personally I'd rather relly on a fairly fail safe system of a belay device being mostly on brake and tight ropes to good anchors with fairly straight lines between anchors and rope to second (normally achieved by anchors above or equal to waist height and often belayer sitting down if anchors at foot height) rather than the bellayer being braced and ready for any eventually and a bunch of slack in the system / rellying on the belayers legs to not only hold their own weight but maybe a couple of times more on top. Call me stupid if you like but I doubt you'll find most modern practices agreeing with you. Would be interesting to watch you belay to see if it's equally as old school.

Maybe things have changed with climbing becoming a much safer activity now and how the distribution of risk within climbing is perhaps differently perceived. Certainly speaking with older climbers they seem to have lost a lot more friends due to climbing than my generation.
Post edited at 22:55
OP CurlyStevo 09 Jun 2015
In reply to John Kelly:

Sorry I definitely don't confine bad practices to older climbers, however i find it easier to pick up newbies on bad practices and they seem a lot happier to take criticizing (see above)
 PPP 09 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

That's why I belay in guide mode 95+% of the time to bring up the second. The other 5% are when I want to refresh on how to do it the other way and to remind myself how badly that sucks. Sometimes you stand on an awkward stance and it's way much easier to keep the anchor tight while you can dance on that wee ledge.
OP CurlyStevo 09 Jun 2015
In reply to PPP:

I don't think guide mode is an essential practice, I personally dislike being belayed on second this way on anything but very easy climbs as I can't freely move up and down sussing the moves out. I don't feel unsafe when being belayed in a safe manner in the more normal mode.
 AlanLittle 09 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

On a snow slope, sure, bucket seat. Obscure special case for most climbers. I was thinking about the rather more common and generally applicable scenario of standing at the top of a rock route having just finished it.

Where did I mention a bunch of slack?

> Would be interesting to watch you belay to see if it's equally as old school.

Do you automatically assume anybody who doesn't accept everything you say as gospel must be dangerously incompetent?
 Robin Woodward 09 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'm in the worried camp. The potential loss of control/shocking of anchors worry is also added to by what seems to be some people's fall catch impulse whilst standung to be holding the rope down as for lead belaying as oppose to back (which can be slightly awkward standing anyway).

Saw a guy belaying a second up pitch 2 of a multipitch V.Diff a couple of months ago stood up with a foot each perched on two large boulders on the broken ridge and a slack sling dangling down over one of them whilst peering over at his second on the crux. They also managed to move 20 m in 2 hours.
 John Kelly 09 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'm not sure you should be criticising anyone's climbing technique, you may want to demonstrate what you believe to be best practice without any criticism.

OP CurlyStevo 09 Jun 2015
In reply to AlanLittle:
I mentioned a bunch of slack in my initial post it wasn't a personal criticism.

In the more general case at the top of a route on a flat ledge where the anchors are at foot level and you are in the best position where you can see your second and there is now a fairly acute angle where your belays device is between the anchors and climber - yes modern advice is now to sit down. I'm surprised you don't know this.

Alternatively you may want to remove yourself from the load on the belay device completely when belaying, this is especially nice if the second is likely to fall off and crush you against the edge or need to weight the rope to take out gear. Standing up in this case with ground anchors and heavy second can be particularly uncomfortable (for extended periods).
Post edited at 23:13
OP CurlyStevo 09 Jun 2015
In reply to John Kelly:
Buy any of the modern instructional books. Anyway clearly what you are insinuating doesn't hold, someone does not need to be perfect for you to learn from them ( and fairly obviously the person your learning something from can still learn from you right ? )
Post edited at 23:19
 John Kelly 09 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

best advice for belaying is to equip yourself with a good understanding of the principles, practice a lot, during which time you will experience the forces involved, use this knowledge to construct the best belay possible - this will not always involve slavishly following best practice as taught in instructional manuals and courses
 John Kelly 09 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> Buy any of the modern instructional books. Anyway clearly what you are insinuating doesn't hold, someone does not need to be perfect for you to learn from them.

thanks
OP CurlyStevo 09 Jun 2015
In reply to John Kelly:
> best advice for belaying is to equip yourself with a good understanding of the principles, practice a lot, during which time you will experience the forces involved, use this knowledge to construct the best belay possible - this will not always involve slavishly following best practice as taught in instructional manuals and courses

Yup totally agree, however deliberately ignoring modern evolution of best practices because you've always done it another way maybe isn't a good idea either. I'm not talking about edge cases here I'm talking about what i see certain people normally doing!
Post edited at 23:22
 John Kelly 09 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I'm talking about what i see certain people normally doing
Tell em once and let it go - adults
 Andy Morley 10 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

This was actually me yesterday. I'm normally punctilious to a fault about anchor-building but in this instance, I realised that because the belay stance was on the lip of rising ground, no matter how far back I went, the angle would be the same. I did manage to get a big sling around a projecting pillar that was higher than me, but that would only have come into play if I'd gone over the edge.

But actually, given the nature of the lip and angle of the climb, I could have belayed free-standing and held a fall, however, I chose to put anchors in behind my feet to brace myself against. If I'd have gone further back, I'd have been no better off and with more slack in the system, the bracing effect would have been less firm. Sometimes you've got to go with what you've got.
 andrewmc 10 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I saw a few people stood at the top of Bosi/Sennen last weekend who looked like (I may have mis-seen) they were standing up at the edge of the crag while their anchor ropes went way behind them to boulders. I can't imagine that any of them would remain standing if their second fell off. I can imagine that they would be smashed into the floor by the force, possibly letting go of their second. It wasn't one of our lot or I would have had a few less than kind words...

Personally in my limited experience I find that whatever takes you out of the system as much as possible (sometimes standing on multipitch with high anchors, usually sitting at the top) is best...

edit - and I always belay with the belay loop - if it's good enough for AK, it's good enough for me good anchor placement beats philosophical discussions about minor differences in connections every time...
Post edited at 12:40
 johncook 10 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I have seen sitting belayers dragged off the edge as they have no way to absorb shock (Legs are good at that) I have seen them whip the brake hand hard back, rip knuckles on the ground and let go in pain. I have seen belayers not able to lower a second as the rope is tight across a thigh.
Try a sitting belay on some of the multi-pitch routes with little or no ledge.
There are many ways of safe belaying, and each has it's up and down side.
Standing or sitting, a belayer who takes a hand off the brake side is a bad belayer.
 ChrisBrooke 10 Jun 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

The answer to these sorts of questions is quite often...'it depends...', and experience will let you know in due course what it depends on

For what it's worth, I've held many falling seconds of all shapes and sizes while stood up. I'm not particularly strong, but the idea that I'd be smashed into the floor if holding a falling second (bear in mind there shouldn't be much slack for them to get up speed with) is just not borne out in practice. Try it sometime - you might be surprised.
You might also be surprised how much force is just taken by your big ass sitting, or standing at the edge of the crag, when anchors perfectly positioned in the line of force aren't available.
Again, next time you're sat on, or near, the edge, holding a second as they rest/fall, touch your ropes to the anchors and see how taut they are. Between your weight holding the climber, the friction of the rope over the edge, and as it gets pulled through the various bits of gear, round various corners etc, there's not always a lot of force going onto the anchors, which is fine with me as I don't usually bother with them.......(just kidding).

Chris
 tmawer 10 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I am an older climber with 40 years of experience, however I feel that there are always things I could learn (or unlearn!) and do better. I have recently taken to wearing belay gloves after 39 years without as I feel a burnt hand may have contributed to a near miss I had with a falling partner.
 Kirill 10 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I would feel unsafe. Just tell them to change! It doesn't matter how experienced they think they are. (I have replaced my belay device eventually, by the way, following your advice)
 Jimbo C 10 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I don't like the look of that style of belaying. It uses the belayer's legs as the primary anchor, much better to have a tight rope to an anchor which is roughly in line with the belay device. I prefer to belay seated and will adjust the anchor ropes to be straight whilst I'm just back from the edge and then make them tight when I shuffle up to the edge. I have belayed standing up in the past but only where it seemed the logical thing to do - e.g. with the anchors high above me and a good stance - even so holding a second still puts strain on the legs even with some of their weight on the anchors.
 jkarran 10 Jun 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

> I saw a few people stood at the top of Bosi/Sennen last weekend who looked like (I may have mis-seen) they were standing up at the edge of the crag while their anchor ropes went way behind them to boulders. I can't imagine that any of them would remain standing if their second fell off. I can imagine that they would be smashed into the floor by the force, possibly letting go of their second. It wasn't one of our lot or I would have had a few less than kind words...

Good thing the experience isn't actually as bad as the imagination in this case then So long as the belay and the live rope are kept snug and the legs kept straight/braced it's easy to hold a fall like this. On the other hand if you're sloppy you're going over the edge, same as you would be were you sat on it and careless. Generally it's unnecessary and sitting is better, sometimes it's a preference thing and sometimes standing works better.

jk
 Doghouse 10 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> Sorry I definitely don't confine bad practices to older climbers, however i find it easier to pick up newbies on bad practices and they seem a lot happier to take criticizing (see above)

Ahhhhhh so you're the belay police!
 SteveD 10 Jun 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

> Snip
> edit - and I always belay with the belay loop - if it's good enough for AK, it's good enough for me
>snip

Interesting that you pick up on that as it is not considered best practice.

I find it odd that a lot of climbers only have 1 way of building anchors or belaying often using an inappropriate method for a given situation. Learn the various methods and practice them, then use the most appropriate for the situation you are in.
 jezb1 10 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

There's a time and a place for different styles, be it sitting/standing/lying down or belaying off the rope loop/guide mode/body belay.

The key is knowing the reasons why you're doing your particular method. That's a question I ask a lot when assessing SPA type candidates, it's nice when they can give a well reasoned answer!

 jezb1 10 Jun 2015
In reply to SteveD:

> >snip

> Interesting that you pick up on that as it is not considered best practice.

It's safe though isn't it.

OP CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2015
In reply to jezb1:

Sure if the ropes are running in a fairly straight line from the anchors to the climber I often stand up, perhaps if the second is light I'll relax how much of an angle I'm happy with between the lines. However I'm commenting on belayers that seem to always use this technique and often also have loose ropes back to the anchors.
 AlanLittle 10 Jun 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

> I can imagine that they would be smashed into the floor by the force,

If you can imagine being "smasehd into the floor" by holding somebody roughly your own weight, plus or minus, normally minus quite a bit of friction, then you're probably underestimating the strength of your own legs.

 barbeg 10 Jun 2015
In reply to SteveD:

Hi Steve,

"Interesting that you pick up on that as it is not considered best practice. " Not considered best practice by who? And why not?

There are a multitude of aspects to belay methods, standing up, sitting down, one belay point or two, using a waist belay, an Italian hitch, a sticht plate, a guide plate, belaying off the rope loop, belaying off the belay loop, belaying of a direct anchor. All have their place in certain circumstances depending on the situation and that is the key point. Have a tool box full of all the tools and apply them appropriately.

Example - on one of my assessments I led to the top of a crag with a client and there was a huge boulder the size of a transit van. For a belay I walked around the boulder and tied back into the rope loop, using the main climbing rope, with a double fig 8 on a bight. Took me 30 secs and the second was climbing. Another candidate next to me suggested I would fail for not having 2 belays and started trying to place nuts everywhere.....

FWIW, my standard belaying method is a sticht plate run off the belay loop....for a multitude of reasons. If I need to alter it I start from there as my baseline - occasions when I change it are rare.

Happy climbing,

ANdy

OP CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
Ok when I did my SPA training we were told not to stand up belaying if there is a sharp angle between the lines to anchors and the lines from the belayer down to the climber. I've also been told the same by friends who are instructors.

Are you saying this is fine (in the general case of adults belaying adults possibly those that weigh more)?

It seems pretty much common sense to me that this is not a great plan.
Post edited at 15:21
 andrewmc 10 Jun 2015
In reply to AlanLittle:
> If you can imagine being "smasehd into the floor" by holding somebody roughly your own weight, plus or minus, normally minus quite a bit of friction, then you're probably underestimating the strength of your own legs.

Consider the worst case scenario - right on the edge of a crag with a completely flat top, anchors >5m back so basically providing no upwards pull at all, climber falls off overhanging wall just below the top so no friction other than that over the edge (which could be rounded). I know I can't squat my own weight (from when I did weights). I _might_ be able to hold someone's weight standing up, but if I don't hold it initially I am going to get pulled to the ground and it isn't going to be pretty. Plus if I'm not hard up against the anchors I am probably also going over the edge...

I see that if you were standing right back you might have a much easier time of it (since more of the force will be sideways rather than vertical, and you get more friction over the edge) - but I prefer to be able to see my climber (plus it's more fun when you get in their way at the top :P ). Is this what people are talking about?

I normally stand up on multipitch belays because a) I like high anchors and b) I like guide mode where possible (see point a). Sometimes this is not possible, because as everybody likes to point out most belays are different

If I am sitting at the edge I normally shuffle back a bit, tighten the clove hitches right up, then shuffle back to the edge taking as much slack out of possible. I also recognise that getting anchors in exactly the right direction is rare and quite often a bit of bracing can do the job just as well :P

PS my point about the belay loop was that I'm not addicted to rules and guidelines and quite happy to do what I like provided it is efficient and safe! e.g. not equalising every piece if they are close enough/bomber enough, no screwgates in a belay (if there are no single points of failure)...
Post edited at 15:42
 AlanLittle 10 Jun 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

> Consider the worst case scenario - right on the edge of a crag with a completely flat top, anchors >5m back so basically providing no upwards pull at all, climber falls off overhanging wall just below the top so no friction other than that over the edge (which could be rounded).

In that case yes, I would agree with you. But not every scenario is that worst case scenario.
 barbeg 10 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Hi Curly Stevo,

Standing up could be fine.....and this is the point.....it depends on the situation...I've been on belay stances where there were only 2 foot holds...stitting is therefore not an option.
Interestingly I have seen sitting belayers dragged over the edge....I have never seen standing belayers dragged over....

ANdy
 barbeg 10 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Hi CurlyStevo,

It says think about sitting down.....the key word is think.... It doesn't mean it is right in every situation, but in some it could be. Different solutions to different challenges.

Best regards,

ANdy
 SteveD 10 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

> Hi Steve,

> "Interesting that you pick up on that as it is not considered best practice. " Not considered best practice by who? And why not?

> Snip

The BMC apparently, Page 16 on this http://bmcshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=5745

SteveD (Always happy when I'm climbing!)



OP CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

I'm not talking about a multipitch belays here. Don't worry I've also stood up on many stances and at the top of crags to belay, but as a rule I sit down if the top of the crag is flat and the anchors are low down - its more to do with rope angles than height of anchors though.
 barbeg 10 Jun 2015
In reply to SteveD:

Hi Steve,

It doesn't say it's best practice - indeed it says both are equally safe.

There is an argument to say that by belaying on the rope loop it transfers more force directly to the anchors, whereas using the belay loop is more indirect and therefore reduces the impact force on anchors.....this has been done to death on here...search the forums.....

Happy days,

ANdy
 LJH 11 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:

This is just a question of using you common sense.
I would like to see somebody hold a 13 stone person standing, with the main line of force down through there legs for more 10 minutes becuase there partner is recovering from forarm pump on a steep crack. Give it a try........ i have and learnt my lesson.

The best situation will always be to isolate all forces from the body by going directly and tightly to the anchors via your harness or rope loop, so you only have to worry about controlling the belay plate (you can manage this all day). This applies if hanging half way up a face or sat on the top of stange.

I know thats not always fully possible but thats the best situation that should be aimed for and i find can be achived 95% of the time if you think enough when setting up the Belay.
 Offwidth 11 Jun 2015
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Some of this practice is terrible (who takes their brake hand off the rope FFS?) some bad practice (always keep slack out of the belay system) some nearly always irrelevant. Most people probably do need a simple safe default system but if you are interested in adventure multipitch you need to at least experiment with a variety of belay methods as one day you will likely need them. Older dudes are more likely to be (or have been) in this later category. It's handy on grit to stand up at times: when seconds are struggling (you can easily assist them through a crux using legs); when the route moves around a bit, to see better on a rounded exit, when moving fast doing lots of routes quickly, or even when the ground is sopping wet and likely to give you piles.
Post edited at 13:38

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