Is there a premium for steel frame (all-)road bikes?

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 TobyA 04 May 2015
So, I landed my first teaching job last week - my first reaction was what relief that I won't be unemployed come September and my second reaction was "hmmmm, maybe I'm going to need a new bike if I cycle in reasonably regularly". Technically speaking, I don't need a new bike but, you know... N+1 and all that.

Anyway, for some reason I'm rather taken with http://www.raleigh.co.uk/ProductType/ProductRange/Product/Default.aspx?pc=1... although I'm not completely sure why. I would love hydraulic brakes on a drop bar bike (the BB5s on my current commuting-CXer are indifferent compared the hydraulics I had on my old hybrid) and everyone says Rival is a great groupset. But why are steel framed bikes so desirable? Everyone seems to love the Gensis CdF bikes (although on aesthetics I think the Raleigh beats them plus has better kit on it for a bit less cost) and all the other (particularly British designed or built) steel framed CX/gravel/all-road/utility bikes seem to have cult followings (as does Surly in the US), but why? Am I just considering paying more because steel is a bit hipster but in reality technically not as good a frame material as carbon or alloy?
 knighty 04 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:

From what i have read on the subject, people want steel frames purely because they can get them welded if they are on a cycle tour. They are compliant and comfortable over bumpy roads vs aluminium frames. Not sure how they compare when carbon comes into the mix...
 beardy mike 04 May 2015
In reply to TobyA: hell no boy... Steel is tough and flexible enough to soak up the bumps and lumps so you get a much smoother ride. Carbon is soft as putty in terms of abrasion and doesn't fair so well in the winter with muck cloging your chainset. Alloy unless its well designed is harsh... Take a look at the Cotic escapade... Soft cross geometry with big tyre clearances up to 45mm. Ideal for a do it all fun. Bike. I was going to get a Vassago Fisticuff, but have fallen back to a default position of the escapade when I found out there aren't any fisticuffs left...

 beardy mike 04 May 2015
In reply to TobyA: ps as for brakes, take a look at hope v twin system. You use standard sti set up with a cable to the hydraulic pistons, then hopes standard xc calipers at the wheel...
 FrankBooth 05 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:

Last weekend I finally got my CdF Ltd http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/adventure/b-road/croix-de-fer-ltd and instantly fell in love. Compared to my road bike it's obviously slow and heavy (especially with a Brooks saddle and an old-school Carradice saddlebag), but the ride is lovely - quite an upright position, and a go-anywhere attitude.
I rode it home from Daventry by linking every bridlepath and narrow-lane I could find between there and my home town (40 odd miles away), and it was awesome. The rougher paths shook the hell out of the bike, and did make me wonder whether this was the threshold between CX and MTB. The gear range (46/34 and 32/11t) made easy work of grassy fields. Looking at your link, I think the spec/cost is quite similar (Tiagra rather than Rival, 725 rather than 631 and a double rather than triple up front). Alongside my road bike (a Boardman), I think I could even consider going n-1, and getting rid of the hybrid, the MTB, the single speed work bike, the 3 speed folder...
 Mowglee 05 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:
Different materials for different jobs. Alloy tends to be a harsher ride, and if it cracks then the frame usually has to be binned. It is cheap though. Steel is quite trendy and therefore pricey, but is often a more comfortable ride (IF the frame is well designed). Although it is possible to weld steel, who actually cracks their commuter on a regular basis? Alloy can also be welded, just more difficult. Carbon is often very comfortable as well, and much lighter, but you probably don't want to trash a nice carbon frame riding to a from work with a pannier, mud guards etc.

Commuting is harsh on bikes, so get something which will be durable and reliable and cheap to repair/replace after a couple of years.

Raleigh has been a bit of a joke brand for a long time. It would be nice if they started doing some serious bikes again, but that Maveric doesn't really do it for me when compared to the others mentioned above. The brakes look dreadful - the whole thing looks about £300, not £1150! With a steel fork it'll probably be quite heavy too.
Post edited at 14:08
moffatross 05 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:

I rode just over 125 K and about 2,000 m vertical yesterday with two pals both on carbon road bikes. I'd just swapped its chainset so I chose to take my 25 yr old steel-framed Dawes Super Galaxy (c/w an overloaded bar bag, touring tyres etc) in order to test it out. On the flats & downhills I was only needing to pedal lightly on the occasions the others could just freewheel but every time we hit a rise, or a sustained climb I was very quickly dropped. I'll never put steel up against carbon again as it very nearly destroyed me. The frame on the Dawes is superb for touring, the tyres are amazing for rough roads, and the racks are great for carrying gear but for long, fast road rides in the company of others with carbon bikes, just don't go there :P
 Toby_W 05 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:

Beware, frame material nonsense again. The harshest frame I have is steel, and at the other end of the scale is also a steel frame.

That bike is talking to you. It looks lovely and they've got something right about it. What it is saying is buy me. I caught your eye and you won't be happy until...

Cheers

Toby
 Phil79 05 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:

Not sure about the steel thing, its definitely in vogue and I suspect you are paying as much for that as for the much talked of 'ride quality' (incidentally I think the ride quality comes as much from frame design, geometry, tire/wheel choice as it does from material choice, but what do I know).

If you are after hydraulic brakes on drop bars at a budget, the Pinnacle Arkose range is worth a look. I have an Arkose 2, with trp hydraulics (very good), but not integrated shifters, instead it runs 1 x 10 with a bar end shifter. Very good values at £750 at the moment.

http://road.cc/content/review/117844-pinnacle-arkose-2-cyclo-cross-bike

The others in the range are variously speced with integrated hydraulics, 1 x 11 cyclocross groupsets, or 2 X 10 compact groupsets.
 Toby_W 05 May 2015
In reply to moffatross:

I used to have a galaxy before I got my Thorn and it was amazing. So stable and the more load you put on it the better it handled, I don't know if it was years of them perfecting the frame geometry or just luck with the frame size and my size.

Cheers

Toby
 robert-hutton 05 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:

I would get an Titanium frame as they will last forever, well a long time, soak the road bumps up and looks great.

You can get a frame from ebay and build to your requirements, personally I would wait for a disk frame to come up
 dek 05 May 2015
In reply to moffatross:

Walking past at near closing time, I spotted a full spec, Planet X carbon fibre road bike in the window of TKmax of all places, for £699! Reduced from well over a thousand...It was snapped up and gone, at 10 am next day!
It's been replaced by a Planet X Park lands? mountain bike, same price.
moffatross 05 May 2015
In reply to dek:

I have a Planet X carbon bike too, and it's amazing. It was also bought s/h, but at less than 6 months old as opposed to the Dawes at 25 yrs. Its different intended purpose is reflected in its technology, making it a fragile feeling, featherweight, thoroughbred racehorse for going fast on tarmac as opposed to an unbreakable packhorse who's happy to go anywhere.
 dek 05 May 2015
In reply to moffatross:

S/H? .... They are brand spanking new!....and gorgeous, really light, stealthlike and sexy, if a pushbike can be 'sexy'..but sadly it was too small for me!
 Marek 05 May 2015
In reply to Phil79:

> If you are after hydraulic brakes on drop bars at a budget, ...

... it's worth reading the article on Bikeradar:
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/horse-for-the-course-focus-cayo-...

 elsewhere 05 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:
Congratulations on the job.

I'll have to ask my brother if he still has that pre or early post war (WW2) Reynolds 531 Claud Butler tandem frame.

Unless modern steel alloys are so much more high strength and therefore temperamental there's no reason why your great grand children can't enjoy that bike. That makes it good value for money when you divide the price by four generations.

 FrankBooth 05 May 2015
In reply to elsewhere:

"It's an heirloom, love"!
Possibly the best excuse for buying a bike I've ever heard
 wbo 05 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:
I've got bikes in all 3 materials and the one i ride most is carbon. I'm 5'7" and Al frames are just too stiff to be pleasant, and I've ridder, tried quite a few.

My steel bikes getting a bit floppy now, and i can feel it bending, but it's 20 years old so thats ok. I have a spare Bontrager frame but doubt it will ever get built up cause it won't get ridder.

My carbon 29 is fantastic thanks. But if you're a 6 4 power monster oversized Al will be great. Houses for courses
 Yanis Nayu 05 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:

You'll probably pay a premium for steel because ginger-bearded wanksters think its cool.

I don't understand how the chain set on a carbon bike gets shitted-up quicker than on a steel bike, as someone alluded to above.

I would only have carbon, but I don't commute.
OP TobyA 05 May 2015
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> You'll probably pay a premium for steel because ginger-bearded wanksters think its cool.

Yeah, I did wonder. There is an undeniable romance to something made by a craftsman/woman in smaller numbers than churned out of a Taiwanese factory. But as I said, I had steel framed bikes for years and did lots of kms on them, then I went over to alloy - first with hard tail MTB, then later a hybrid for commuting, then I got a new alloy framed road bike about 5 years ago, then "recently" (actually about 3 years ago now) an alloy framed CX bike to commute/CX race/bikepack/offroad.

I tend to agree with whoever it was above who said things like tires and wheels seem to make a bigger difference to ride feel - although I've never owned a carbon bike so can only compare alloy to steel.
 beardy mike 05 May 2015
In reply to Yanis Nayu: that depends on your commute doesn't it... If you're going down green lanes and using a cross bike for some mild off roading, it is entirely possible to get your bike entirely covered in grime. You may think its a ginger bearded wankster thing to do, but I quite like one bike which will do it all, including easy mountain biking. I can't justify buying an expensive carbon frame, when you can get just as good a ride from a frame thats several hundred quid less. Thank f*ck I'm not ginger...
OP TobyA 05 May 2015
In reply to beardy mike:

> when you can get just as good a ride from a frame thats several hundred quid less.

I was actually thinking aren't some carbon CX bikes less i.e. http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBOODDAPEX/on-one-dirty-disco-apex-cyclocross-... which I think looks rather nice. But then, if they build that frame with hydraulic brakes and Rival, its actually 150 quid more than the Raleigh for instance http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBOODDRIVHRD/on-one-dirty-disco-sram-rival-hrd... So maybe I'm answering my own point here....

BTW is Rival similar to Tiagra, anyone? I thought it was higher - more like 105 or Ultegra.
OP TobyA 05 May 2015
In reply to Phil79:

> If you are after hydraulic brakes on drop bars at a budget, the Pinnacle Arkose range is worth a look. I have an Arkose 2, with trp hydraulics (very good), but not integrated shifters, instead it runs 1 x 10 with a bar end shifter. Very good values at £750 at the moment.

I had seen that review and thought the bike looks really interesting. 1x11 seems really sensible in many ways, cheaper, lighter, simpler - although I do find I really need my granny gears on some of Sheffield's steepest hills (like the one my house near the top of!). But the bar end shifter put me off. I guess I'm so used to riding on hoods, moving my hand down there to change gears seems weird, particularly in traffic when you need to be on your brakes. Did you find you go used to it very quickly or not?
 beardy mike 05 May 2015
In reply to TobyA: that is a good deal. I've been looking at the dirty disco as a self build, but its normally 450 quid, doesn't have the tyre clearances I want and has no rack mounts. The Cotic Wankster I've been looking at is £350 and will last for a long time, has everything I want. If you can live without hydraulics, they start at £999. Its interesting that their 105 equipped version is more expensive than the on one. But i'm guessing that has to do with component purchasing power... On one is a bit bigger than cotic so probably better discount?
 summo 06 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:

if you want a hand built bike for you - http://arthurcaygillcycles.co.uk/framebuilding-and-renovations that will certainly last.
In reply to TobyA:

> BTW is Rival similar to Tiagra, anyone? I thought it was higher - more like 105 or Ultegra.

Rival is third in SRAM's line so equivalent to 105 (and 11 speed too) but in terms of quality/feel it sits between the two. Tiagra is roughly equivalent to SRAM Apex.
 Phil79 06 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:

> I had seen that review and thought the bike looks really interesting. 1x11 seems really sensible in many ways, cheaper, lighter, simpler - although I do find I really need my granny gears on some of Sheffield's steepest hills (like the one my house near the top of!). But the bar end shifter put me off. I guess I'm so used to riding on hoods, moving my hand down there to change gears seems weird, particularly in traffic when you need to be on your brakes. Did you find you go used to it very quickly or not?

Personally, I think its a great bike, but probably a bit 'marmite'. Ok its not as light as my road bike, but its a far more comfortable beast which is ideally suited to my commute and general hacking around at the weekends on and off road. It will take big tires (40c cross tires) and full sks mudguards if you want.

The lowest gear (38 x 32 = about 33inchs) is lower than my road bike compact (34 x 25 = 35 inches?), not found this a problem on hills up to 20% or above in rural Devon. You could probably get a greater range if you customised the cassette by sticking one of the 40t mtb sprockets on, but not sure about compatibility issues. Still, I do seem to drop the chain a lot less than on my road bike, owing to not having a front derailleur I guess.

It took a few rides to adjust to the bar end shifters, but they seem second nature now. Its not quite as responsive/quick as shifting from the hoods, but its not enough to noticeably effect my riding.
 malk 06 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:

i've heard BB7 brakes are much better than BB5s. have you tried? i'm looking for another steel frameset for touring - there does seem to be a premium on them. this looks good value, but not sure if i want discs..
http://www.tritoncycles.co.uk/road-bikes-c5/touring-bikes-c41/fairdale-week...
OP TobyA 06 May 2015
In reply to malk:

Odd looking one that! But sort of funky as well. It looks very good value at that price too, I've got Sora on my CX and its fine, and have also heard BB7s are a step up from BB5s. Had to stop and adjust my BB5s again on the way into work as the back wasn't working properly - they really are annoying, and its that over a couple of days they can go from perfect (no rubbing but will lock the wheel easily if needed) to refusing to lock the back up even when you haul on them.

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