UKH

Okay I'm Adam and basically I am basically designing a first aid kit for Mountaineers. It will be carried on the person in some way or another.

I was hoping someone could shine some light on the main injuries as in the most common ones as I don't really know much about the sport so could anyone please shed some light on this ? (volume of injuries and where on the body?)

I presume Mountaineers will have First Aid kits handy in case of an accident minor or major ?

I would like to know what Mountaineers would take with them whilst climbing the mountain ?

Thanks for any help, it is much appreciated guys and girls. Thanks in advance.

In reply to azzykaii:

Personally nothing on the basis that either an injury will be minor and I'll get away with no first aid. Or it will be major and the odd plaster won't help. That said, I would think something to staunch bleeding might be good (a fleece maybe), and, having once had to give mouth to mouth, one of those masks so there is no need to "kiss" blood and vomit.

In reply to azzykaii:
Same as MG..

If I put anything in it's Vaseline as a runner.. Friction is the main issue.
I once put a stake into my calf and improvised with a sock and a wind smock tied around and hopped out.

But if I did it would just be a standard first aid kit. Especially when out in the hills first aid is about improvising ..

In reply to azzykaii:

I carry super glue, tape, some bandages, a triangular sling and antiseptic wipes. Thats pretty much it. In mountaineering/climbing the majority of injuries are minor cuts,grazing and bruising. On the off chance something more serious happens, a basic first aid kit probably wont help you! Broken bones, especially ankles/lower legs and head injuries (blunt force trauma) are the most common serious injuries I would say.

In reply to MG:

Okay thank you for the information on the basis that it was a n injury that required first aid, what kin dof things do you think mountaineers such as yourself would need for a quick fix so that you could carry on with you mountaineering ?

Also what are the most common injuries which tend to take place when mountaineering ?

Thanks once again for the help.

In reply to azzykaii:

As above the quick fix will either be bleed a bit until it stops, hop for a bit until I am at a car/road/hotel/hospital. Or attempt to get help. Someone seriously bleeding or not breathing, would I imagine be the major potential problems encountered.

Why are you doing this if you have no background in mountaineering? Perhaps as starting point have a look what is currently on offer - there are a lot of commercial packs available.

In reply to azzykaii:

You could contact:
http://www.safeinthehills.org.uk/Courses/First-Aid-Bag.aspx
to see what they are expecting to go into the bag.

I assume this is not meant to be a Team First Aid bag or a Hasty Bag but one for members personally.

In reply to james.slater:

Thanks for the thorough reply. This information will really help

Also can you think of any problems or issues you may have had whilst trying to use a first aid kit, I mean if an injury occurs for example an orgnaized 1st aid kit must be more convenient right ?

In reply to MG:

Hey Mg I am basically doing this for a college project in which I have to choose an outdoor sport and after looking at many i chose Mountaineering. Also that is the idea of research, I'm not supposed to be an expert but rather learn and find out what I need to know to take this forward. At the end I will be designing and manufacturing the full and resolved solution. So an actual product will be getting made in the next couple of weeks.

In reply to m0unt41n:

Hi thank you I will definitely check that out in a moment and yes this is for a member personally. Although depending on my interpretation it could be designed for a group 1st aid kit who take turns at carrying it. That is also a possibility.

Thanks for the help though. I appreciate it

In reply to azzykaii:

It depends on what you're trying to do. In the UK mountains, most people on this forum tend to be light on first aid kits - ibuprofen, plasters/dressings, some things to stop bleeding if anything more serious happens. At that point you would rely on the cavalry (MRT) being able to get to you, if you couldn't hobble down.

I also take a small sachet of eye wash, which is a bit unusual, but I take the attitude that if anything got in my eye it would be nice to be able to get it out when clean water isn't available.

The approach is, of course, entirely different if you are operating in an area where timely assistance isn't available.

In reply to azzykaii:

I would take climbing tape and a pack of tissues.

In reply to azzykaii:

I'm a paramedic by trade and also involved in search and rescue so tend to take a little more than the average person as I would feel lost without it.

The biggest result in injury in mountaineering is going to come from trips, slips and falls so the SAM splint with a bit of trauma tape is a fantastic, lightweight, rugged and cheap piece of kit I always have with me recreationally or professionally in the hills: http://www.sammedical.com/products/sam-splint/

In reply to azzykaii:

I carry a V small stuff sack (half a litre or so) that has:

A NATO shell dressing
Compeed
Water treatment tabs
A thin caver's exposure bag
zip ties, whistle, duct tape
small tin of Dermatone
Safety pins, needle & thread, strong analgesics, diarrhea tabs.

I've used all of the above at one time or another. Weighs around 300g

In reply to Adam_Turner:
Similar situation to Adam. As a Mountain Rescue Team Cas-Carer and sometimes Freelancer what I carry when on a call-out or have a duty of care for others is different to when I’m out playing.

On my own its minimal – a Traumafix dressing, self amalgamating bandage, sam splint, a couple of plasters and a selection of pain killers and I rely on being able to improvise everything else.

You’re not going to get a definitive answer on this. Lots of opinions, but I think a common thread will be First Aid in the hills is about improvisation, If something major happens, eg, long bone fracture or flail section in a chest wound, you’re not going to be carrying everything you need to deal with it and that’s when knowledge and improvisation are more important than the kit.

https://www.lifesystems.co.uk/products/first-aid-kits

Http://www.advancedelementskayaks.co.uk/product.php/705/ortlieb-canoe-first...



In reply to azzykaii:

If you search forums there have been a few threads on this.

From a design pov I have a small drybag for mine. Keeping stuff dry and undamaged in a rucksack is something you could look at.

In reply to azzykaii:

I used to have a piece of thick leather in my kit, but a more modern solution would be a childs teething aid.
This was used to bite down on when the pain was bad so i didn't bite through my tongue.
Hope this helps.
James

In reply to azzykaii:

To be honest, the only time Ive been faced with a serious (life threatening) injury whilst out climbing, my first aid kit wasnt to hand, which is just the nature of climbing unfortunately, the person having the accident may not have the kit with them! However in this case a first aid kit would not have helped. An organised first aid kit might give you peace of mind, but in reality there are far more pressing issues to deal with if an accident does happen. Getting to the injured climber might not be simple, getting them to breathe or stop blood flow whilst hanging in a harness is difficult to say the least!

In reply to Adam_Turner:

Hey thank you for the information, since you are a paramedic by trade, I would also like to ask you a few quesitons about first aid.

What problems and issues do you think there are with first aid kits in general ? (i.e. think about the product itself and how easy or hard it may be to use them?)

In reply to azzykaii:
I suspect that many folk have small hill kit rather than a specific FAK that can be repurposed for first aid or clothing / kit repair.

Mine has small pen knife (with tweezers),
Small roll of duct tape and climbing finger tape,
cable ties,
2* thick large freezer bag.
Compeed
A few blisters of Ibuprofen, aspirin, Imodium and antihistamines
Small head torch
A few antiseptic wipes
A couple sanitary towels and a gauze
An ikea pencil and a few small sheets of waterproof paper
A whistle
A spare compass
Small pack of glucose tabs
Some safety pins
A pair of latex gloves.
Foil blanket
Some loo roll.

All stored in a little alpkit dry bag. It sits in the bottom of my rucksack and rarely comes out apart from when required. I really should check that the compass still points north.

As others have stated, self resilience and the ability to bodge a fix is more appropriate 95% of the time than carrying a big FAK, and if thing are really bad, that is when you call for help.

Al

In reply to Mr Trebus:

Hey Trebus

Does carrying any of these things ever cause inconvenience, like for example trying to find the 'whistle' out of everything else thats in there with it. Ease of access and organization must be something of an issue ?

In reply to azzykaii:
Common non-climbing mountaineering injuries would be ankle, from slips, and collarbone, from tumbling falls. Climbing injuries would seem to be more multiple.

My first aid kit is a development of my emergency repair kit, two cable ties (for breaks) and a metre of duct tape (for tears), by the addition of a sanitary towel (for dressing). More general stuff, concerned with endurance, includes Aspirin (for altitude), Dextro Energy glucose sweets (for stamina), foil blanket (for warmth).

In reply to azzykaii:

The medical stuff is all in a sandwich bag, everything else is loose. I haven't actually noticed any issues with it.

To be honest, the loo roll and gaffer tape see the most action followed by Compeed.

I have in the car a commercial FAK with lots of pockets, but the case must weigh 400g, that is probably more than my hill bag.

If you want compartments maybe some kind of plastic tool roll would be the way to go.

In reply to azzykaii:

My own personal kit is similar to that carried by Mr Trebus, which can be supplemented by a bigger role specific kit as required. For me the key things elements are as follows:
Contains enough to deal with blisters, bites, scrapes, pains and sprains.
Is lightweight enough to be unobtrusive when climbing.
Compact overall package (as previous point).
In waterproof packaging (small Alpkit dry bag).

I am not concerned about having everything in one bag because there is so little it is easy to find what I need. Additionally, I use zip lock bags to contain things like blister plasters and any OTC medication carried.

Most of the injuries I have encountered on the hill have been heat and cold injury (burns, blisters, heat exhaustion, hypothermia); cuts and grazes; bites and stints; and sprains. Oh, and plenty of cases of injured pride!!!!
I have been fortunate not to have had to deal with major trauma on the hill, and there is a risk that this has impacted upon the kit I carry. I suppose it is said that we are shaped by our experiences. It's the same for my first aid kit.
I have owned a number of off the shelf first aid kits over the years and have generally consigned them to one of the gear boxes in the garage after using the same items from each. Gloves, plasters, and tape. Pretty much every thing else remains unused.
As other posters have stated the key thing is having appropriate the knowledge and being confident to apply it to adapt other items carried.
Of the more 'specialist' items available, a Sam splint is a very useful piece of kit.

In reply to azzykaii:

I agree with everyone who said glucose tablets. A few of them can be enough to get you down from the hill when you're in trouble. I'd add a couple of diuretic tablets if you are going high. I carry a very sharp tiny Swiss army knife and a lighter for sterilising.

Most big stuff would be too big to carry but there might be clever ways of using standard mountain kit e.g. a strap for converting an axe into a splint?

In reply to azzykaii:

The ideal first aid kit that will get you out of any situation short of a chopper jobby contains:

Duct tape
Too-strong-for-a-gp-to-prescribe pain-killers
"Breaking bad" grade stimulants

Get that together in a nice little bag on the market and it'll sell like popcorn, and not just by mountaineers

In reply to azzykaii:

Strappal tape, penknife, foil blanket + bothy bag

Hypothermia will kill you faster than a broken ankle. The most important piece of "first aid kit" you can carry is probably your phone and the ability to use your map to ensure help comes to the right location.

If you're going to get yourself off the hill without assistance from MRT then you're going to be hardy enough to go without elastoplasts and tubigrips...

If it's serious enough that you need evacuated then I'd argue the single best thing you can do is carry enough clothing and a shelter to prevent deterioration due to hypothermia whilst waiting for help.

Having done pre-hospital care training the only thing I might add to my personal kit would be a simple airway adjunct for situations where I had to leave an unconscious friend whilst going to find phone signal.

Have you seen this document? http://www.mountainrescuescotland.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Scottish-M...

Gives a useful summary of Scottish accidents to give you an idea of what the patterns of injuries are on Scottish hills

Iain

In reply to azzykaii:
If you can stem any bleeding and maintain an airway, you are doing everything right whether you are doing it wrong or not.

There's not much need to have anything other than stuff to stop bleeding and maybe something to give a diabetic. also a good idea to carry a shelter of some sort!

In reply to azzykaii:

What problems are there with first aid kits in general? Well... the commercial outdoors products are firstly confusing for the consumer as there are so many different options, the lifesystems range is probably the best example of this. Plus most of the content is pretty irrelative to what is actually needed and often completely unnecessary. The most common injuries on the hills are going to be sprains/fractures and heat/cold injuries - none of these kits have anything to deal with that, perhaps other than the odd triangular bandage.

For someone with even a little bit of training, all of the things in these kits should be very easy to use; as mentioned in previous posts education is key. If you carry one of these kits but don't know what to do when the need arises, why carry it?

In my personal first aid kit that is purely for my use and would never be used on a patient, wherever I am in the world on the hill includes:

Compeed
Antibacterial wipes
Small selection of plasters
Paracetamol
Forehead gel patches (for high altitude headaches)
Strepsils (for high altitude / dusty + dry environments)
Imodium
Diarolyte
+ a survival bag in my rucksack
When required:
Anti-malarials
Diamox
Broad spectrum antibiotics

The items I carry to treat patients/casualties vary with what I'm doing. It will always be based around the initial life saving priorities of major bleeding control and airway control then what I would add would depend.

In reply to azzykaii:


http://www.wasatchrescue.com/shop/c/p/PodSacs-First-Aid-Dry-Bag-x3899086.ht...

Easy to find in the rucksack, waterproof, holds a fair bit and doesn't come filled with stuff you'll never use.

In reply to azzykaii:

Tic pliers, Duct tape, a NATO wound dressing, CPR mask thingy, Latex Gloves, aspirin and a Ventolin Inhaler, pencil and waterproof paper. Packaged up in a small red drybag. Anything extra can be improvised.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Agree.

There are 2 types of kit.

Ouch pouch
- to sort out minor things that can happen quite often
Compeed, plasters, ibuprofen, paracetamol, odds and ends

Emergency
- potentially life saving and really all this can be is bleeding, hypothermia and hypoglycaemia so
Traumafix or similar, Blizzard bag or shelter, Glucogel

Most first aid kits seem to aim for somewhere in between.
But in the greater scheme of things it is likely to be better to carry a small shelter than a comprehensive first aid kit.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Any of you guys agree with this also ?

Normally I carry skin glue to stop nasty bleeding and a set of plaster for minor cuts.
Everything else is useless.

For bandages and immobilizing broken limbs clothes can be used.

In reply to nutme:

"Everything else is useless." Really?!

In reply to nutme:



Trust me, the time when you need imodium, you will be glad you have it.

In reply to nutme:



Not sure if you've tried skin glue for proper "nasty bleeding" but I reckon it would also be pretty useless... If it's superficial enough to glue you can manage it in the field with some pressure or sticky tape until it gets a proper clean up and closure in hospital

Iain

In reply to azzykaii:
I have a fairly standard first aid kit but far and away the most used items are

Knife
Climbing tape
600mg ibroprofen tabs

Gnarly blisters are the most common injury.

In reply to Babika:


>


Where do you get those babies from?

They should be prescription only shouldn't they?