Lochaber MRT reply to recent rescue

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 Denni 26 Feb 2015
Sounds like they had a hellish time on this rescue and really like their reply which is something they wouldn't normally do. A fantastic resource which we are all lucky to be able to call upon.

http://www.lochabermrt.co.uk/

(you have to scroll down to see the latest entry)
In reply to Denni:

Absolutely. Sometimes things have to be said!

NMM
In reply to Denni:

On UKH too: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/item.php?id=69540

Sounds really challenging; hats off to them
 Lucy Wallace 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Denni:

Sounds like this was a super expensive rescue in terms of kit. They will be very much welcoming donations just now.

https://www.justgiving.com/lmrt/Donate/
 Simon Caldwell 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:


I've got UKH News in my favourite forums, but only see it if I go to UKH, it doesn't show up on UKC. Is that deliberate, or a bug?
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

It's on purpose, to cut down on double posts and help keep us distinct
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 tony 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Denni:

As a friend commented on Facebook - if I ever need them, I'm going to do what I'm told!

Sounds like a terrific effort from all the team.
 Simon Caldwell 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Fair enough. Though means I never see them as I only access the forums from UKC - given the number of views most posts have I expect the same applies to most people.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Yes that's possible. Thanks for raising it
 SenzuBean 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Denni:

"The group had reportedly gone to climb Ben Nevis for charity."

Would love to hear what caused the party to get lost in the first place. Did they have map and compass - did they know how to use it? Did they even know what a cornice was?*

*I was in Ft William just over 10 months ago, just finished the West highland way. Guidebook said that finishing on Ben Nevis is a great way to end the trip, instead of the delight that is... Ft William. Was in the info centre in Glen Nevis, talking to the staff. Then was outside waiting, and got chatting with another charity group (doing the 3 peaks) - they were going up that day. They were wearing summer clothes, but there was still decent ice and snow on Ben Nevis. Curious - I asked if they knew about the cornices and what they would do about them (I was not super clued up myself and was wondering if there's anything special to avoid them) - they looked very puzzled, and between them not one knew what a cornice even was, let alone that they posed a significant danger - they said they were just going to follow the path up (I went up the next day - the path was completely covered over with hard neve by around 1000m).
 Paul249 26 Feb 2015
I agree with the point that they shouldn't have been out there in winter without the right gear, but I have to say if my mate had fallen and was screaming for help/ in pain then I would also try to climb down to help them if it was possible. It's easy to be wise after the event, but for all they knew he had serious injuries that needed immediate care. They might have thought the timescale for MRT arrival was too late?

It wasn't the right decision in the end, especially if poorly equipped, but I can understand their desire to help a friend.

I may be picking up the story completely wrongly and they weren't trying to get down to help him when they fell, however.

 summo 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Paul249:

> but I have to say if my mate had fallen and was screaming for help/ in pain then I would also try to climb down to help them if it was possible.

Sounds as though they weren't able to look after themselves, never mind help their mate. I think there are zero excuses for not doing as the rescue services told them.
redsonja 26 Feb 2015
In reply to summo:

Agreed. Great respect to Lochaber MRT- what a bunch of heros
 Simon Caldwell 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Paul249:

"In the meantime the two guys at the point we had located with the phone app decided to move down towards their mate who was still shouting. We told them again to stay where they were but they obviously knew better and carried on which resulted in both of them falling "
Ann65 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Denni:

Also written up with comments at:

http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/
 Trangia 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Denni:

"They were climbing Ben Nevis 'for charity'"! WTF? Inexperienced and going out in attrocious conditions. I know charities are desperate for funds, but don't the charities owe some sense of responsibility to the inexperienced people who think it's a great idea?

There must be better ways of raising money for charities other than putting inexperienced participents and those who rescue them in jeopardy. MR is also a charity and one which is considerably out of pocket as a result of this irresponsibility.

The charities need to take a lead here and discourage/spurn funds raised by such dubious activities.

 nclarey 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Trangia:

I find it somewhat ironic that an effort to raise money for charity in this way has undoubtedly resulted in a net loss to charities as a whole, and that without even starting to account for the risks to life and limb for the MRT. Dreadful.
 DerwentDiluted 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Denni:

Proper job.
 Roadrunner2 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Trangia:


> The charities need to take a lead here and discourage/spurn funds raised by such dubious activities.

I dont think you realise how disgusting some of these charities are. They are greedy business's, driven by making money. The money may go to a good course but their tactics is often pretty immoral and poor. I was involved with one challenge in Snowdonia which only by chance people werent killed or seriously lost. They ignored all safety advice and had incompetent marshalls. They actively encourage such activities.
 Trangia 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Roadrunner2:

> I dont think you realise how disgusting some of these charities are. They are greedy business's, driven by making money. The money may go to a good course but their tactics is often pretty immoral and poor. I was involved with one challenge in Snowdonia which only by chance people werent killed or seriously lost. They ignored all safety advice and had incompetent marshalls. They actively encourage such activities.

Then they should be named and shamed in the press and people discouraged from donating to them.
 planetmarshall 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Trangia:

> "They were climbing Ben Nevis 'for charity'"! WTF? Inexperienced and going out in attrocious conditions. I know charities are desperate for funds, but don't the charities owe some sense of responsibility to the inexperienced people who think it's a great idea?

I don't see any reference to the group climbing Nevis for charity other than the UKH article - it is not mentioned in the MRT post. Even so, we don't know whether it was a 'charity sponsored event', or a group of people raising money for a charity independently. Maybe it would be best to wait for more facts before calling charities to account.
 Trangia 26 Feb 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

I got it from the UKH article - but fair comment.
 Lucy Wallace 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Trangia:
It's been reported elsewhere too- although could all ultimately come from the same single source. I think the P+J were on to it first: https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/502759/ben-nevis-rescue...

I've had first hand experience of their journalists- and they have a reputation for hanging about outside MRT bases when something is up.

Edit: This is a nice juxtaposition to last night's rescue. A similar accident, but the casualty was more experienced and did all they could to a)prepare and b) help themselves and the MRT: http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2015/02/25/how-i-cheated-death-after-a-fal...
Post edited at 19:08
Calski 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Denni:
I absolutely agree that MR is a fabulous resource in this country and one we should all support. Some of the busier teams, including Lochaber, have a really difficult time in winter with members having to juggle rescues with their normal daily lives - big kudos to them.

HOWEVER, I think this was a mistake...in a stroke they have wiped out many years of leaving it to the Police to publicly comment on those they rescue and have quite possibly done this in the heat of the moment.
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OP Denni 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Calski:

I appreciate what you're saying but in this instance, you are being naive. If you think by writing a statement about a rescue account actually "pointing fingers" they have wiped out years of dumming down and leaving it to the police to deal with, then I raise your naivety to a higher level than above.

It is never for the police to comment on what has happened as they were not up on the hill, did not have to risk their lives saving others and they are only ever handed an account of what happened.

It actually says more about the LMRT that they were prepared to release a statement/rant about the situation stating that the "climbers/walkers" were inexperienced, didn't do as they were told and more importantly, that they again recognise the input of all team members and helicopter rescue team risking their lives to save others.

Also, "in the heat of the moment" these people are not like that, something which you clearly do not understand.





 Joak 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Calski:

>
> HOWEVER, I think this was a mistake...in a stroke they have wiped out many years of leaving it to the Police to publicly comment on those they rescue and have quite possibly done this in the heat of the moment.

I often hear said "They should make them nutters pay for being rescued" amongst the less well informed general public. Following a long, protracted, extremely hazardous night on the hill, my take on it is that the LMRT has in a stroke, educated the less well informed general public regarding the workings of Mountain Rescue in the UK. Well done team on the call out and subsequent "rant". I sincerely hope I never have to call upon your superb services
 Sharp 27 Feb 2015
In reply to Calski:
I'm certainly surprised, I read the book Cairngorm John a while ago and his reasons for not berating rescuees seemed pretty solid then and the facebook post doesn't really give any indication of why the sudden change of policy.

In the post it says something like 99.9% of people rescued are experienced walkers/climbers who suffered something unavoidable yet you don't have to read far down the facebook comments before you realise that that isn't the message that people read.

All kudos to the rescue team for what they have done/do, it sounds like an incredibly intense night and of course on the back of many others which must take it's toll over the winter. That said I am unsure what the rational behind the post was, apart from frustration which while understandable is rarely a good reason for publishing something. There must be better ways of educating people than publicly berating bad examples to an audience of people who most likely aren't the people who need telling anyway (LMRT facebook followers). In essence I imagine the result of that facebook post is giving some juicy headlines to journalists.

You can write that you don't want a paid rescue service as much as you want but wrapped up in that story I fear it will be beamed accross the country tomorrow as "rescue teams risk their lives for idiots, is it time for a publicly funded rescue service?" If the point of the post is wrapped up in the last couple of paragraphs (rescue teams struggling but still want to continue providing a world class service in the same nature they do at the moment - for those that aren't reading it) it would have hit a lot harder if it had been a story of the lives they've successfully saved and are happy to keep on doing, not tagged onto the bottom of a rant.
Post edited at 19:00
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 Michael Gordon 27 Feb 2015
In reply to Sharp:

I was always under the impression that statistically most MR call outs are for the inexperienced, so that comment of theirs had a strange ring to it?
 Mr Lopez 27 Feb 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:

I think the public 'statement' is less to do with the classic unequipped party goes to mountain in bad weather and gets in trouble but more to the fact they disregarded MRT's instructions to stay put after several requests to do so. Or likely a combination of the two with the latest being the icing on the cake which made the rescue harder, longer, and put both rescuers and rescuees in increased unnecessary danger.

I can only imagine the frustration felt by the team when the victims were seemingly doing the opposite to what they were being told and effectively hindering their own rescue every step of the way.
 Michael Gordon 28 Feb 2015
In reply to Mr Lopez:

I quite agree about the likely and understandable frustration; the question of course is should they have voiced it?

I don't really have a strong view either way in this case. I just thought their comment about most rescues being for experienced parties didn't seem to ring true.
 richprideaux 28 Feb 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I don't really have a strong view either way in this case. I just thought their comment about most rescues being for experienced parties didn't seem to ring true.

In the stats and anecdotes from other similar teams (mountainous area, busy, lots of mixed experience in 'clients') you tend to see more rescues involving those who have made some preparations for the conditions, or have had some experience in hillwalking etc before. It isn't where the thrust of any educational or warning messages go, but that is understandable.

 PN82 01 Mar 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:

In Scotland, for callouts related to rescue of hillwakers and mountaineers then statistically it is the more experienced/prepared/equipped that require the assistance as opposed to the 'trainers and jeans' brigade that grough or arm chair pundits would have you believe.

On a more informal basis, I have had 4 hillwalking/mountaineering friends rescued over the years all by RN and RAF helicopter, 1 was a munro compleater, 2 were attached to ropes led by an MIC and the other an experienced winter climber.

My non hillwalking friends who wore pyjama bottom and trainers, jeans etc on Ben nevis and others who have crawled on their hands and knees on Ben Vorlich when they didn't have ice axes (I might add none of these people were with me at the time) none of these had to be rescued.

What was interesting about the latter group was their reason for going up the hills as they did. Their thought processes were actually pretty logical and although I personally don't advocate or encourage people to follow their example, I do understand why people don't use maps compasses, research route, weather prior to heading out.

Just regarding the point about the guys not listening to advice and staying put. Again none of us were there and we have only heard from MR point of view. But I do kind of agree that if I could hear a mate/family member calling out in pain and I thought MR may be some time, I can't guarantee I wouldn't go down to try and find that person myself. In a situation like that it can be difficult to stay put because you feel like you should be doing something.

I do wholeheartedly agree with the lochaber MRT's points about not charging/insurance debate and the funding for MR teams.

Regardless of opinion on what has happened it has raised the profile of MR and hopefully donations. All they need now is a loveable dog to go missing on Ben Nevis and watch the donations go through the roof...


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 Michael Gordon 01 Mar 2015
In reply to richprideaux & PN82:

Thanks. I got the opposite impression regarding rescues in the Lakes but the situation may be very different there.
 martianb 01 Mar 2015
In reply to Denni:

I'm in two minds about what Lochaber have ranted about. Yep, to ranting about the rescue, thats fair enough, But it seems they've tagged on a whole host of semi political rants as well.... 1. Police Scotland, 2. The new SAR helicopter service 3. Other MR Teams work and the way finances are distributed.

I'd agree with some of the the political rants and reasons, but, Police Scotland is here to stay and change was inevitable, the new SAR fleet looks good and I think there is a fear of the unknown. As for finances I'd imagine that teams like Lochaber, Cairngorms and Glencoe have relatively healthy amounts of donations from people rescued, bequeathments in wills etc COMPARED with teams like Moffat and Tweed valley. The busiest teams also get a bigger slice of the finance cake, thus the reason why the lowland teams are willing to help the Police to carry out, what should/would have been a Police only search etc. And the Police are willing to utilise teams as they can provide a number of people at short notice for no, perceived, expense. I understand and appreciate the finance situation every team is in and that more money to each team results in a better service that they can deliver.

What i didn't like is that Lochaber appear to be MR in Scotland. No mention on their rant, subsequent posts or their website about Scottish Mountain Rescue being the governing organisation, or that you can donate to your local team or in general to Scottish Mountain Rescue..... only donations to Lochaber please.

I still think Lochaber have and do a brilliant job though, as do all MR teams
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mackfras 01 Mar 2015
Any truth in the rumour that Bear Grylls was reported to be filming in the neighbourhood.......

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