Winter climbing tools 1960's to now

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 Rick Graham 21 Feb 2015
Just been thinking about how modern axes and crampons have made winter climbing more accessible and " easier" for everybody.
Cams, for example, could be responsible for taking two full E grades off certain grit routes.

I have winter climbed with varying degrees of enthusiasm since the 1960's, starting with one straight pick and no crampons.
As a starter, I would suggest the following grade advantage of axe and crampon improvement.
All scottish winter overall or tech grade.

Crampons Salewa/Grivel classic 12 pt to modern 1 grade.

Straight axe to Terrors 2 grades

Terrors to Chacal/ Pulsars etc half grade

Leashless ( viper etc ) 1 grade

Further one grade for handled state of the art tools ( machine fusions etc )

On pure ice 1.5 grades for modern screws.

A bit of basic maths to check the theory gives a grade improvement of 3.5 from early 70's to now. This equates to a "good" grade then of V being VIII / IX now. So possibly not far off the mark?
 Doug 21 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

what about step cutting to front pointing ? - I've never really cut steps so can't judge what difference it makes for grades

I also found that going from Salewa 'bendy' crampons to Chouinard rigids (both with Super RDs) helped by about half a grade (but maybe just an increase in confidence)
OP Rick Graham 21 Feb 2015
In reply to Doug:

> what about step cutting to front pointing ? - I've never really cut steps so can't judge what difference it makes for grades

Only cut steps twice, once in the 60's.
The second time was on my second Alpine route in 74. We tried to front point up the Nollen Buttress on the Monch. After a 50' fall on badly dinner plating ice we cut steps up it for 8 hours. The hardest arm workout I have ever experienced.

> I also found that going from Salewa 'bendy' crampons to Chouinard rigids (both with Super RDs) helped by about half a grade (but maybe just an increase in confidence)

Didn't bother me, I really liked my Salewas. The next crampon I really liked was the Grivel 2F, but the balling up was a pain.
grubus 21 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

I like the approach, but I don't think you go back far enough. Scottish grades were established when we typically had one right-angled axe, such as an Aschenbrenner or a Nanga Parbat and the crampons of choice were Ralling wrought iron .(You heated them and bent them to shape to fit your boots.) You cut hand holds. Salewa crampons were much more rigid than Rallings or the other makes and the McInnes axe (with its angle of (I think) 81 degees (1968?) was much more secure. I think the Curtain would still be a 5 with one axe and bendy crampons!
 Doug 21 Feb 2015
In reply to grubus:

> I think the Curtain would still be a 5 with one axe and bendy crampons!

But surely it was 'only IV' as it was short ? (in the guidebooks of the period)
 Duncan Beard 22 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

So....as I am just starting out I should buy all modern gear & launch myself onto a grade IV or V? Somehow I doubt it.

I would think that gear is no replacement for experience (although it may ease the technicalities).
OP Rick Graham 22 Feb 2015
In reply to Duncan Beard:

> So....as I am just starting out I should buy all modern gear & launch myself onto a grade IV or V? Somehow I doubt it.

> I would think that gear is no replacement for experience (although it may ease the technicalities).

It has been done by quite a few climbers

Usually by those at least average in pure rock climbing standard.
 3leggeddog 22 Feb 2015
In reply to Duncan Beard:

Yes, this is far from unusual and generally a whole lot safer.

Start playing Dvorjak if you wish. When I started winter climbing, in the days of plastic boots, vertiges, wrist loops (this is what they were called when you made your own, before the marketting men started calling them leashes), bang in ice screws and 12 point crampons, climbing grade five meant something. You had arrived, you were considered a climber. This is no longer the case, grade 5 is becoming a punter grade.

In addition to ricks list, I would add ice screw racks, clippers, flutes etc and modern clothing.

The whole shebang over the course of my climbing career must be worth at least 2 grades. Back then, 25 years ago. I was climbing 5, now climbing 7.

2 grades plus allowing for 25 years of the aging process.

In short, with modern gear there is no excuse, get on those 4s and 5s
1
 TobyA 22 Feb 2015
In reply to Duncan Beard:

> So....as I am just starting out I should buy all modern gear & launch myself onto a grade IV or V? Somehow I doubt it.

> I would think that gear is no replacement for experience (although it may ease the technicalities).

It's rather the case that all that super modern gear won't make a blind bit of difference on grade Is and IIs. The debates you read on here from people asking about whether Vipers or Quarks are better, when they say their intention is to do I and II gullies, are a bit funny in that respect.

If you are a decent rock climber and you have good gear, in some ways starting on routes that are known to have decent protection and actually have some technicalities (routes at grades like III,4 and IV,5) may well be safer than starting out in I and II gullies. Easy routes have all sorts of dangers inherent in them and you often end up soloing, technical buttress routes you put the effort into building good belays and placing lots of runners. Although, if you don't do the "traditional apprenticeship" you would miss out on doing all the stupid stuff we all do as beginners that hopefully we survive. I soloed Central Gully on the Cobbler with my mate, despite having brand new ropes in our packs, because we decided to 'solo up to a good ledge' to tie on there. That day, there were of course no 'good ledges' and we soon found ourselves at a point where going up seemed easier than going back down.

 rif 22 Feb 2015
I think Rick has it about right for the period when I was active (started snow/ice climbing in the mid/late 1960s, using stepcutting at grades up to IV on the Ben and TD in the Alps; stopped serious climbing in the late 1970s).

There were a series of improvements in the early 70s: curving (Chouinard) or tilting (MacInnes) the axe pick; using a second tool (Chouinard hammer was the first) instead of nothing or an ice peg; using leashes; using a pair of matched tools. The first effect of this was that climbing was far faster and more secure. For example, one big Lauterbrunnen north face that I did in 1970 took 21 hours using stepcutting, another harder one in '72 took 7 hours using curved tools; and stepcutting Green Gully in 1969 took 4 hrs but I soloed it in '71 with a borrowed Chouinard hammer. The second effect was that far more winter climbers started thinking that grade V was within their reach, and the top climbers pioneered harder routes.

I Imagine reverse-curve picks were also a significant improvement (that was when? -- 1980ish? -- and that modern tools with handles are worth at least another grade.






 TobyA 22 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

Up to about grade V, WI4 particularly on ice, I'm not totally convinced that the gear I have now makes such a big difference to the gear I had starting out in the early 90s. I think the changes you saw in the 70s and 80s were bigger than what I've seen in the 90s and 00s. I'm one of the dying breed who can still climb harder on pure ice with my wrist loops clipped in, and I never had big problems with bashing my knuckles with my straight shafted Pulsars, so although my modern tools are definitely better I don't know if they give me a full grade advantage. Interestingly, being back in the UK this winter for the first time in over a decade, and getting to climb UK mixed routes, leashless is clearly (for me) a way better technique - in that it's clearly superior to the old days of wrist loops. On pure ice in Scandinavia, particularly with the excellent clip-in/out Android wrist loops I have, I never found that the advantages of leashless for me fully outweighed my clearly puny forearms and grip strength!

There were a few advantages to some old school gear as well, in 4 years of regular Scottish winter climbing I don't remember ever getting cold feet in my Scarpa Grinta plastics. This winter in the not terrible cold Lakes I've had to be careful with lacing and in doing some toe scrunching to stop my toes getting really cold in dinky Sportiva Trangos!
In reply to Rick Graham:
TBH I don't think the physical difficulty of climbing routes like Point Five has actually changed that much since '73 when it and Zero were soloed in something like 3 hours. Even by modern standards that would still be a bold achievement.

What has changed is the mindset of climbers. For example, I was told recently by one of the FAists of Gemini (grade VI) that they placed no runners on most pitches. Most climbers on the route this year were carrying massive racks.

As far as snow and ice routes are concerned I'd say modern gear (since 1971/2) has made a negligible difference at grade IV through to perhaps over half a grade at grade VI.
 Michael Gordon 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

I'd say good leashless axes like Fusions probably give you the potential to climb about a grade harder than using slightly curved axes with leashes. Because they also feel so much better to climb with, they give the confidence to attempt harder pitches and so generally make it much easier for the majority to climb to a decent standard (as opposed to a very select few who may have a natural aptitude for winter climbing).
 Michael Gordon 23 Feb 2015
In reply to TobyA:

Certainly if you suffer from cold feet then big heavy (but warm) boots are far preferable to small and light.
 Michael Gordon 23 Feb 2015
In reply to TobyA:

> If you are a decent rock climber and you have good gear, in some ways starting on routes that are known to have decent protection and actually have some technicalities (routes at grades like III,4 and IV,5) may well be safer than starting out in I and II gullies.

The trouble is grade I and II ground is unavoidable. Much of the time doing general winter mountaineering (or steep approach slopes) you'll be covering the equivalent of grade I ground, not to mention once you've done the technical route and just have the finishing gully / snow slope to go! There is definitely some merit in starting out on very easy stuff (if only briefly) to get experience on the type of ground involved.

 Michael Gordon 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Doug:

The Curtain is actually one of the very few examples of an old route which has been downgraded in more recent years (from V to IV) due to being short.
 planetmarshall 23 Feb 2015
In reply to 3leggeddog:

> In short, with modern gear there is no excuse, get on those 4s and 5s

I disagree. The most fundamental skill when climbing steeper routes, at least to my mind, is gaining a feel for what kind of axe and crampon placement will hold your weight and allow you to make progress. To paraphrase Steve House, yesterday's tiny ledge becomes tomorrow's massive jug.

If grade 5 is becoming a 'punter's grade', it's because popular grade 5s now see vastly more traffic than the did 20 or 30 years ago, and become at least a grade or two easier as a result of being stepped and hooked out. Go climb a 1* grade 5 in the remote NW with a 4 hour walk in and I'd bet it will probably still 'mean something'.
 planetmarshall 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> The Curtain is actually one of the very few examples of an old route which has been downgraded in more recent years (from V to IV) due to being short.

Was it downgraded because it's short? If I had to make a case on it being IV rather than V, I'd say it's more because in 'average conditions' it's extremely stepped out due to its popularity.
 Steve Perry 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> The Curtain is actually one of the very few examples of an old route which has been downgraded in more recent years (from V to IV) due to being short.

Doing it few weeks ago I thought it could be III,4, no more than IV,4 and it was certainly easier than Aladdin's Mirror Direct (IV,4) I'd done a few days prior to The Curtain though AMD felt hard for its grade that day. I suppose it shows ice is never the same twice.


 Michael Gordon 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Steve Perry:

Great ice on the Ben recently though! Probably would have said IV,5 for Vanishing Gully but that's again partly because it's short.
 Michael Gordon 23 Feb 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

Really you have to grade a route for not being stepped/hooked out, even if after a few ascents it gets that way. Otherwise it becomes a sandbag for those doing it in top (i.e. non-stepped) nick.
 planetmarshall 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Really you have to grade a route for not being stepped/hooked out, even if after a few ascents it gets that way. Otherwise it becomes a sandbag for those doing it in top (i.e. non-stepped) nick.

Shouldn't it be graded for the conditions that the majority of people find it in? According to the SMC guide, the benchmark grade V is Point 5 gully in 'average conditions'.
 Michael Gordon 23 Feb 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

'Average conditions' usually means mid-way between very thin / just climbable, and first time placements in once in a lifetime ice. In other words, reasonable nick but nothing special - neither hard nor easy. Stepped out means very easy nick which is certainly not average conditions for when the route is climbable.
 3leggeddog 23 Feb 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:



> If grade 5 is becoming a 'punter's grade', it's because popular grade 5s now see vastly more traffic than the did 20 or 30 years ago, and become at least a grade or two easier as a result of being stepped and hooked out.

That traffic is there because of improvements in gear, chicken and egg

Go climb a 1* grade 5 in the remote NW with a 4 hour walk in and I'd bet it will probably still 'mean something'.

Without a doubt but for different reasons altogether
 French Erick 23 Feb 2015
In reply to 3leggeddog:

In proper condition grade V is a punter's grade: has been for at least the last 10 years. But what does it mean to be a "punter's grade"? If the route is good, the company excellent and a great day is had, who gives a monkey's if it is a punter's grade?

Now I consider myself a punter, albeit dedicated and passionate about winter climbing. I have aspirations and limitations (of time and energy). I am not very fit- compared to the machines operating at grade VIII and above. I climb at around VII regularly.
The kit makes a huge difference, but only insofar as you're ready to try and fail.

Climbing first leashless (with DMM rebels) and then with Nomics has been a revelation- I need all the help I can get because I'm not good at training and a fairly unfit climber.
How many full on Grade VIII have been climbed with good tools likes BD vipers and the likes?

We'll never know what Robin Smith could have climbed if he had front monopoints, light gear, ice screws and ergos. They were hard men for sure but were the product of their age: they may never have imagined the type of climbing which is at the cutting age of Scottish winter exploration in 2014!

No dilly-dallying. Want to do classics? Do them! Want an easier time? Do them with super technical and light modern kit! Want to have a laugh and a work out? Use kit from the 60s, 70s...whatever!

I hardly ever do new routing: it's not something I know much about. I imagine that the mental fortitude and physical toughness necessary to push into the unknown- whether it be V in the 60s, VI/VII in the 70&80s, and now X- is only going to be the realm of a few very motivated and single minded individuals. I ain't of that kilter, I repeat routes I know will be good, stretch me and will be lasting memories! It's good to show your mates you've still got it but that is not the main motivating factor. Personally, it's a battle against my utter lazy and self-pitying self.
 rogerwebb 23 Feb 2015
In reply to French Erick:

>
>
> Personally, it's a battle against my utter lazy and self-pitying self.

You are neither, but I know exactly what you mean.

The company is what its about, and the scenery.............

 rogerwebb 23 Feb 2015
In reply to rogerwebb:

And of course spending money on shiny things
 rossn 24 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

I think screws certainly make a massive difference in terms of safety over the laughable cork srews that were available in the past. It did made those old guys really bold climbers though. They had to be. Just like to throw boots into the mix. Modern boots are light, stiff, warm and very comfortable in comparison to old style boots of the 6os and assist performance. I remember seeing an 'early ice hammer', property of Frank Anderson in the late 70s. It had been made from a slaters hammer. It's possible that in the late 40s and 50s when he was probably using it, that these were common place. Perhaps someone may have more information on this subject. RN
In reply to rossn:

Screws have certainly made the biggest difference. In the late '70s, not only were they heavy, they were an absolute b to place, involving chipping quite a starting hole and then hooking the pick of your axe through the eye and using the axe as a leaver to get it to turn. This basically involved two hands so could only be done in balance and was pretty precarious. As a result we only bothered carrying three screws, 1 per belay and 1 emergency runner, on routes like Point 5 and Orion Direct. Now I carry half a dozen or so and use them all!
 Michael Gordon 24 Feb 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

If we're talking ice routes, I'd have thought the development of inverted picks (which could be placed and pulled down on rather than having to chip handholds) was a bigger step change (pun intended) than the development of modern screws, though those have obviously made a huge difference, along with many other things?
 barbeg 24 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

Hi Rick,

Biggest change for me was the move from standard wooden shafted, curved pick axes to banana picks...I went from Stubai alpine axes to Simond Chacal & Barraccuda....suddenly I could fool myself I was half decent at this climbing lark !!
Increase of 2 to 3 grades I would say....

ANdy
 barbeg 24 Feb 2015
In reply to rogerwebb:

Hi Rodger,

Have to agree here, for me it has to be about the whole experience.....people, location, mountain, weather, and importantly, the LINE. I'd rather do a great line at Grade II/III than some crummy short artificial Grade V....
ATEOTD it's all about getting out there and doing it, whatever kit you have !

ANdy
 Bob Bennett 24 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

Had some old alpine wood shaft axes in the late sixties, so bent them in oxy/acet torch and covered the shafts with fibreglass. Made a big difference until I went through the ice and hit rock when pick split apart!
 barbeg 24 Feb 2015
In reply to Bob Bennett:

Hi Bob,

I used to use cricket bat rubber handle tubes on mine.....

ANdy
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Well yes, but drooped picks had already come in by 1979 when I started winter climbing.
OP Rick Graham 25 Feb 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

I am pleased this topic has had sensible discussion throughout.

Just as well I did not use my original title

" With modern gear should Grade IV be now classed as winter walking?
 Mike Lates 25 Feb 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

I agree that decent screws have made ice routes a different proposition. You placed them where you could get 2 hands free to do whatever worked to get them in (I threw a "Fat Boy" away in disgust once), hammer in drive-ins (loved them unless 2nding) then just went for it to the next break in angle. Thanks to discovering mixed I don't climb much ice nowadays and standing below a steep section on the Ben recently I found myself automatically looking up & calculating I'd deck it if arms ran out at the top. One handed placing on vertical terrain is still not something my brain considers "normal" but oh what a joy it is, especilly after having them sharpened at Needle Sports........
 rossn 25 Feb 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Yes indeed. I have a couple of those old Salewa ice screws lying about in my garage somewhere. The other common bit of kit from that era was the warthog, still used to some degree nowadays. But your right protection before the advent of the modern screws tended to be extremely difficult to place on ice and it was sometimes a case of keep moving and hope to find a bit of cracked rock. My mate found a old screw, circa 1960, when we were on the Mer de Glace last year. When you look at it you just think 'oh my god'!

RN
 rossn 25 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

Just read your list again and this is a bit off topic but I took a look at the climbing museum in my garage.
Stubai Aschenbrenners of various vintage - antiques, ok for winter walking or a retro day on the Anoch Eagach Ridge
Terries - don't miss the bruised knuckles
HB Tornadoes - much better picks but still sore hand potential
DMM Fly - at last curved shafts great tools
Grivel Airtech - excellent alpine/general mountaineering tools, but the best axe I have
A mint Zero with the exotic laminated bamboo shaft - far too good to use and would love to get a decent matching hammer.......so if anybody is selling one.....

RN
 Nathan Adam 26 Feb 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

http://www.abacusmountaineering.com/currentconditions.html

Some views about the grading of the Curtain and Vanishing. Interesting to hear from a seasoned Nevis regular.
 Michael Gordon 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Nath93:

Where does he say something about the grades? Can't see anything.
 Nathan Adam 26 Feb 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Specific post seems to have gone walk about and I can't find the one I meant to link while on my phone. Will try and re-link tomorrow at some point!
 dek 27 Feb 2015
In reply to Nath93:

Being local,..Have you by chance heard if Thomson's route, is still in condition?...(still got that one to do.)
 Nathan Adam 02 Mar 2015
In reply to dek:

I did it two or so weeks ago now, it was in superb nick but haven't been up since then. Heard reports that the mid level ice is still in condition and winter is full on again so can only imagine Thompson's being even better now.

Out again on Wednesday so will let you know what condition the hill is in.
 Nathan Adam 02 Mar 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Can't get it to link directly to the blog as it just goes to the current post, but here are the words of Mr Pescod;

"I have always wondered about the grades of these two climbs. The Curtain (IV,5) often feels trickier and more serious than Vanishing Gully (V,5) and today was no exception. Vanishing Gully has two fixed runners in the first pitch and rock protection is possible in the steep second pitch. It is very easy to escape the route by abseil. It is steep but being straight up it is quite simple. The Curtain is just as easy to abseil off but has tricky sideways climbing and is only protected by ice screws. So why is Vanishing Gully V,5 and The Curtain IV,5? Should they both be IV,5? Let me know what you think."
OP Rick Graham 02 Mar 2015
In reply to Nath93:

Probably not as many times as a local guide, but I have done Vanishing twice and the Curtain 3 times.

Vanishing has always felt a grade harder to me, the cave exit is often very steep, far steeper than anywhere on the Curtain. So have no problems with the existing grades.

Vanishing is a lot less "wide" than the Curtain so is either "in" or "not in ".

The Curtain is "wide" so not easy to tell if in good condition, so its grade is more variable, and probably climbed more often in poorer conditions.

Hope that makes sense.
 Michael Gordon 02 Mar 2015
In reply to Nath93:

Thanks for that. Perhaps Vanishing has been in easier than average nick this season? When I did it it wasn't stepped out but still not overly steep at tech 5. The crux section is also quite short.
 Exile 02 Mar 2015
In reply to Nath93:

As with Rick, I' be not done the routes hundreds of times, (twice each,) but I thought the guide book grades right.

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