UKH

I'm just starting out in winter mountaineering. In addition to a light walking axe, I have these 'climbing' axes:
1 Glace Inox trad style pick adze, 50 cm (looks like a short walking axe)
1 Mountain Technology Vertige droop pick hammer, 45cm

So far I've only done a couple of grade I/II routes. I'm thinking with these I could probably do III but maybe not IV.

Is it worth buying a Vertige droop pick adze off Ebay to go with the hammer?

I don't have ambitions to lead IV this winter but I might be seconding III/IV shortly. I don't want to spend too much at the moment.

In reply to Duncan Beard:

People used to do VII's with vertiges - yeah they will never be as good as a newer pair of axes but as a general all round mountaineering axe you could do a lot worse especially if you are on a budget!

In reply to Duncan Beard:
only done 1 ice climb , but it was a iv with vertage axes . seemed ok , but nothing to compare it to.

In reply to Duncan Beard:

I did loads with my Vertiges - they were a great axe in their day. I'd be wary of using any axe over 10 years old if it's obviously had a lot of hammer due to the possibilty of metal fatigue but if it's in good condition and you know its history then it should be OK. If you can find a spare pick on ebay at a reasonable price it would be a good investment as there haven't been any available for years.

In reply to Duncan Beard:

Vertiges were great tools. There is no problem keeping in touch with the past and climbing with them; I still do.

Just watch your knuckles! Those straight shafts.......

Which are great for plunging in soft crud it has to be said.

In reply to Duncan Beard:

To answer the original question - I bloody hope so!!

JW

In reply to Duncan Beard:

Duncan,

I used to have a set of vertiges and led some grade 4s with them at the time. It'd be easy for me to look back with nostalgia but I often remember having sore knuckles. One season, I remember doing my last climb in March and having swollen/painful knuckles right through to the end of April. Probably poor technique at the time had something to do with it right enough ...!

I remember them being good on general mountaineering grade 2 type routes but there are better axes out there now.

Modern, leashless axes are, in my opinion, easier and more fun both to climb with and place gear. If your looking to improve/ climb a bit harder I'd try to get a second hand deal on some modern axes around end of March/ April when there is less demand for them. If your happy climbing fun mountaineering routes and can get vertiges for buttons then why not....

Hope that helps

Jon

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I think I will get one more Vertige then probably get something fancier in a season or two.

Ive got a pair, but they are blunt as hell now, Ive climbed IV with them. they were grand, but now I just use them for dry tooling.

If you going to buy some make sure the picks are in good nick, because its near impossible to get new picks these days.

You can pick up a set of DMM flys for the same price and its easier to replace the picks

In reply to Duncan Beard:

youtube.com/watch?v=9Uw-wsU0xMw& shows Vertiges being used to some effect on 'White Magic.' (And straight-shafted axes being used likewise on Mega Route X.)

'It's not the boots on the man; it's the man in the boots' ...

In reply to marzi:

I have a bench grinder & an angle grinder so no excuse for blunt picks! Grinders are pretty cheap nowadays.

If I find a pair of Flys cheap I would buy them. Probably keep an eye on Ebay & here during the summer. I know some awesome climbs were done with Vertiges though. I like the idea of exploring climbing history for a while (not with too old gear though!). Hats off to Hamish, what a star.

In reply to Duncan Beard:



Aye too true bud, and still twinkling

In reply to Duncan Beard:

Using either a bench grinder or angle grinder on picks can destroy the temper.. use a file!

I used to have vertiges.. once the bolts holding the pick in place became loose on green gully!
The CM Axars I replaced them with were much better & less bashed knuckles!

In reply to Duncan Beard:
I had a worrying experience with my 20 year old Vertige. The pick came away from the head, fortunately just after leading a pitch. The lightweight feel for the Vertige derived from the head being more holes than head. It was great while it lasted, but I would recommend not climbing with antiques.

In reply to Duncan Beard:

once the "hooked" profile is gone, you will never get it back, your left with essentially butter knives. This is what happened to mine. Unless you have some tradesman metalworker master craftsman skills

In reply to Jasonic:


Grinders are fine as long as you use a bit of restraint and keep the workpiece cool. Bad workmen always blame their tools

In reply to timjones:

Point is you need some care.. fie is safer- actually I can remember the picks bending sideways which was also disconcerting on the lead.
Still have my technical axe which is bomber & likely to outlast me!

http://www.buachaille.com/p2763-5-43/Ice-Axes/Mountain-Technology-Alpine-Ic...

In reply to Duncan Beard: As others have said, Vertiges are decent axes. I've still got mine and did my hardest lead (grade VI mixed) with them.

Whilst they are still a good axe for moderately hard mixed climbing, they are fairly poor on ice compared to modern curved and leashless designs. However, as with most older tools, worthwhile modifications are possible to allow leashless climbing. I added some Grivel triggers to my pair and it made a world of difference allowing me to happily use them on grade V ice routes like Smith's Route and Indicator Wall as recently as 2010.

I haven't used them this season but I used them last Winter on Tower Ridge to save the picks on my then still very new Quarks.

If you can get an axe for about £30 I'd go for it. If not I'd look at trying to pick up something slightly newer for £100 for the pair (and modifying them for leashless use). Older axes with hardly any use will be much better investment than newer ones with overly blunt picks. For example, DMM Aliens and Predators are still surprisingly usable. I'd probably avoid Stubia Hornets and HB Tornado & Hurricane but most Grivel or Charlet Moser tools from the last 20 years would be worth considering.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:


I never owned Vertiges, but worked in Glasgow climbing shop around the time when they were king - and I think many people wanted them as they seen as Scottish made tools for Scottish routes. But I remember various mates who had them, trying other people's tools of that era (straight shafts) and finding the alternatives superior on pure ice; Piranhas, Pulsars, Super Courmayeur etc. The French and the Italians were obviously working out what worked best on pure ice before the folk in Glencoe were!

I sold my Pulsars only last month, I hadn't used them for a few years at all so despite having some emotional attachment to them, I'm happy if someone else is getting some usage out of them and is getting some winter routes in for a very reasonable price!

In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Hi Stephen,

Any other information on metal fatigue in axes, you raise a good point....makes me thing maybe I should change mine ?

In reply to Neil Anderson:

I still own a pair of Vertiges...... muscle fatigue is more of a concern for me

In reply to Neil Anderson:
Metal fatigue in axes increases Needle sports profits...I would buy Singing rock bandits as per the other thread...
£150 a pair...

In reply to john irving:

Back in 1994 my partner had one of the bolts in the head of her then newish Vertige shear so that the pick wobbled 60 degrees up and down. She was halfway up the ice pitch near the top of Mt Cook at the time, so a bit worrying. Talking in the hut later we heard 2 other people had had the same problem. worryingly, the 3 axes concerned were bought on 3 different continents.

In reply to Iain Thow:

Nothing that a bit of Loctite didn't fix so that they didn't come loose in the first place. Same held true for later Charlet axes. Loctite on my current BD axes too, for the avoidance of doubt

In reply to Duncan Beard:

Not only do the picks need to be sharp, NB how long they are. (When I replaced the picks on my Vertiges 15+ years ago I remember being surprised to see that the new picks were 20mm or so longer than the old, filed-down ones)

In reply to blurty:
Spot on. The Mtn Tech picks are soft by modern standards and wear down substantially over time. 20mm of wear is about what my old picks have and they aren't the longest design to start with.
Those suggesting you can just keep sharpening them don't really understand what they are talking about.

In reply to Iain Thow:


I had the same thing happen. Conveniently in Glencoe.

Popped down to the factory and Hamish himself apologised and cannibalised a couple of new axes to sort me out. Good service!

In reply to Duncan Beard:

All I can say is that 18 months ago I forked out for a brand new pair of Charlet Mosers and have never used them to this day because I'm just so comfortable with my old Vertiges.

In reply to Duncan Beard:

Hi,

My first axes were Vertiges, I climbed up to grade V with them no problem (did get sore knuckles occassionally though); then I had quarks, climbed up to grade VII in them, now I have Black Diamond Vipers. Make me an offer for any of the other tools....happy to give them to you for a small fee

In reply to Duncan Beard:

I still use a pair of DMM predators, not so much a climb, more a workout!

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

I just bought a Vertige adze with standard pick fitted and drooped pick with it (£21 + £8 pnp).

Comparing the droop to the hammer I already had, the hammer's pick is one whole tooth shorter - about 5mm. It does not look like the newer one has much wear as it is very shiny with no heavy scratches. There are 11 'notches' near the end (not counting the 3 near the shaft) - I'd be interested if anyone can tell me if this is the original length.

In reply to Duncan Beard: I am assuming that it is the same axe that I saw on eBay recently. In which case the pick in the photo looked pretty much in original condition.

More generally there is a slight complication as Mtn Tech produced at least 2 and probably 3 or more designs of Vertige pick over the years.

In reply to Duncan Beard:

11 is correct on the end of a new pick. I have new picks on mine. They need to be kept sharp. Brilliant for mixed routes as others have said up to a high standard probably much higher than most punters climb. Also the straight shafts have certain advantages as has been commented on.
Bashed knuckles is just bad technique.
Good winter climbing is all about - EYE - BRAIN - MOVE. One efficient placement each time. No hacking and flailing like you see amongst the multi-coloured gear freaks - all the gear and no idea.
Vertiges are tough and reassuring.
Anyway, it's not the gear that makes a good climber.
DC

In reply to Duncan Beard:

Yes nothing wrong with Vertige. Get another one to make a pair then in a season or two you might get something else.

RN

In reply to Duncan Beard:

Why has no-one mentioned Camp Golden Eagles?? I think these are excellent. Can't beat them on the Scottish stuff.
Chris

In reply to cwarby:

My first proper axes - till they finally wore down too short to be safe - I loved them !!!

If I could get a mint pair I'd still use them!

In reply to wercat:

Are you looking and if so what would you pay for a pair (adze and hammer)