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Not a good start to a young climbers first ever winter gully to find a plaque cemented to the rock with a wreath. Two young people belaying their intrepid leader up an ice pitch with a memorial to a very unfortunate death right in their faces. Should these memorials be somewhere else? Should they be removed?
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In reply to DaveHK:
I would gues it might be Pygmy ridge?
All very sad and deepest sympathies to the friends and family's involved, but there is no place for memorials like this and they should be removed. The hills will otherwise be littered with memorials, destroying what we all seek out in our mountains.
Let us remember our lost friends in a way that pays respect to the mountains they obviously loved and not desecrate them.
I would gues it might be Pygmy ridge?
All very sad and deepest sympathies to the friends and family's involved, but there is no place for memorials like this and they should be removed. The hills will otherwise be littered with memorials, destroying what we all seek out in our mountains.
Let us remember our lost friends in a way that pays respect to the mountains they obviously loved and not desecrate them.
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In reply to andy brown:
Also recently noticed a fixed plaque at the bottom left toe of Alladins Buttress, commemorating someone who died in 2013.
Also recently noticed a fixed plaque at the bottom left toe of Alladins Buttress, commemorating someone who died in 2013.
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In reply to andy brown:
I don't know if it is still there but it was 65 years ago, a plaque to a fox hound that fell off Striding Edge half way along.
I don't know if it is still there but it was 65 years ago, a plaque to a fox hound that fell off Striding Edge half way along.
Post edited at 23:54
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In reply to andy brown:
It's a tough one, there are always loads in the Alps and I find it quite sobering and interesting, makes you consider what you are doing and also honour those who have gone before you and died doing what you did. I quite like it there. However, the Alps have so much rock and are so vast that I think it's fine and sustainable, but in the Uk with a limited resource we should stay away from this and find other ways to honour those who have lost their lifes in the hills.
It's a tough one, there are always loads in the Alps and I find it quite sobering and interesting, makes you consider what you are doing and also honour those who have gone before you and died doing what you did. I quite like it there. However, the Alps have so much rock and are so vast that I think it's fine and sustainable, but in the Uk with a limited resource we should stay away from this and find other ways to honour those who have lost their lifes in the hills.
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In reply to andy brown:
I have lost numerous friends to climbing [including my best friend at the time], as have many on here, and really sympathize with their families [and other friends] for their enormous loss.
But I think that those who want to put up memorials should do so only on their own land - did those grievers own the Cairngorms? - no, thought not.
I have lost numerous friends to climbing [including my best friend at the time], as have many on here, and really sympathize with their families [and other friends] for their enormous loss.
But I think that those who want to put up memorials should do so only on their own land - did those grievers own the Cairngorms? - no, thought not.
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In reply to andy brown:
This question has arisen many times and opinion is very much in favour of removing them. Which I expect is what will happen. A shame for relatives who don't understand.
This question has arisen many times and opinion is very much in favour of removing them. Which I expect is what will happen. A shame for relatives who don't understand.
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In reply to Yourlead:
If it is, that's a bit of a funny one because it's not the most accessible spot. Usually these things appear somewhere non-climbers can reach easily.
If it is removed, which I think it should be, it needs to be done with sensitivity to the relatives and the environment.
> I would gues it might be Pygmy ridge?
If it is, that's a bit of a funny one because it's not the most accessible spot. Usually these things appear somewhere non-climbers can reach easily.
If it is removed, which I think it should be, it needs to be done with sensitivity to the relatives and the environment.
Post edited at 07:25
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In reply to andy brown:
I agree that they should be removed. A few might become historical monuments of interest, like the one to the faithful dog who sat by the body of his dead master on Striding Edge as described above by Joan, but in most cases, once the relatives have moved on they just become litter.
Even worse are bunches of flowers which really are litter. It's the same with roadside bunches of flowers at the site of fatal crashes. Many councils now remove them after a week or so.
To me remembering someone at their place of death is morbid. I'd rather remember them in my head as they were at a time when they were alive and happy.
I agree that they should be removed. A few might become historical monuments of interest, like the one to the faithful dog who sat by the body of his dead master on Striding Edge as described above by Joan, but in most cases, once the relatives have moved on they just become litter.
Even worse are bunches of flowers which really are litter. It's the same with roadside bunches of flowers at the site of fatal crashes. Many councils now remove them after a week or so.
To me remembering someone at their place of death is morbid. I'd rather remember them in my head as they were at a time when they were alive and happy.
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In reply to andy brown:
Should be removed. On a similar topic, I've twice topped out into a load of ash at Burbage North.......
Should be removed. On a similar topic, I've twice topped out into a load of ash at Burbage North.......
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In reply to andy brown:
Has anyone been in to the little church grave yard At Wasdale Head?
Very sobering.!!
Has anyone been in to the little church grave yard At Wasdale Head?
Very sobering.!!
In reply to DANNYdjb:
Like the graveyard at the English church in Zermatt?
> Has anyone been in to the little church grave yard At Wasdale Head?
> Very sobering.!!
Like the graveyard at the English church in Zermatt?
In reply to andy brown:
Yes, whilst I too am quite reflective and thoughtful when I come across them (as I did on Liathach this summer btw, and moved it away from the summit), I do think they shouldn't be there, for the reasons mentioned about.
Maybe if they could have a sort of shelf life.....placed for a period, and then removed by the family/friends? I dunno really?
Has anyone seen the huge 'chapel' in the rock close to the rifugio XII Apostoli in the Brenta? That is a different idea, where there is a designated place of memorial to lost climbers/walkers/mountaineers. Not knowing it was there, or expecting it, it was quite a discovery to two relatively inexperienced mountaineers!
Yes, whilst I too am quite reflective and thoughtful when I come across them (as I did on Liathach this summer btw, and moved it away from the summit), I do think they shouldn't be there, for the reasons mentioned about.
Maybe if they could have a sort of shelf life.....placed for a period, and then removed by the family/friends? I dunno really?
Has anyone seen the huge 'chapel' in the rock close to the rifugio XII Apostoli in the Brenta? That is a different idea, where there is a designated place of memorial to lost climbers/walkers/mountaineers. Not knowing it was there, or expecting it, it was quite a discovery to two relatively inexperienced mountaineers!
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In reply to andy brown:
If the deceased were to have a say in it, and are presumably 'outdoor people', do we think that they'd want to be remembered in a way that desecrates the mountain environment that they clearly loved?
If the deceased were to have a say in it, and are presumably 'outdoor people', do we think that they'd want to be remembered in a way that desecrates the mountain environment that they clearly loved?
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In reply to andy brown:
Whilst I fully sympathize with all concerned I believe they should be removed from the mountain enviroment.
I have no hassles with the rock that's at the MRT buliding on Skye where I believe people place plaques.
cheers
Gaz
Whilst I fully sympathize with all concerned I believe they should be removed from the mountain enviroment.
I have no hassles with the rock that's at the MRT buliding on Skye where I believe people place plaques.
cheers
Gaz
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In reply to Trangia:
That was a different but very faithful dog. The foxhound I meant was hunting with other hounds , chased a fox over the edge up one hill side across the top and disappeared over the edge, don't know what happened to the fox. Was in the time of John Peel I think.
That was a different but very faithful dog. The foxhound I meant was hunting with other hounds , chased a fox over the edge up one hill side across the top and disappeared over the edge, don't know what happened to the fox. Was in the time of John Peel I think.
In reply to andy brown:
Remove immediately.
Defaces the rock as at Castle Rock in Lakes - 4 bolt holes remain and a chiselled out square. Inappropriate legacy for the deceased too.
> Should they be removed?
Remove immediately.
Defaces the rock as at Castle Rock in Lakes - 4 bolt holes remain and a chiselled out square. Inappropriate legacy for the deceased too.
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In reply to tehmarks:
Agreed, I'd hate the idea of having a memorial to me in such a place. Not that it wouldn't be nice to know people cared!
I think the solution to this issue on Ben Nevis is a perfect compromise all round.
http://www.nevispartnership.co.uk/memorials.asp
> If the deceased were to have a say in it, and are presumably 'outdoor people', do we think that they'd want to be remembered in a way that desecrates the mountain environment that they clearly loved?
Agreed, I'd hate the idea of having a memorial to me in such a place. Not that it wouldn't be nice to know people cared!
I think the solution to this issue on Ben Nevis is a perfect compromise all round.
http://www.nevispartnership.co.uk/memorials.asp
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In reply to andy brown:
reminds of a plaque on ben more marking the helicopter crash and death of multiple members of local MRT. don't have a problem with that one at all, it's small and discreet on one boulder amongst a large rocky area - chances of finding it are quite slim. never really seen or thought about individual ones, i guess they could get out of hand quite easily. for me, i'd rather be remembered in a particular spot in the valley, like the examples mentioned above.
reminds of a plaque on ben more marking the helicopter crash and death of multiple members of local MRT. don't have a problem with that one at all, it's small and discreet on one boulder amongst a large rocky area - chances of finding it are quite slim. never really seen or thought about individual ones, i guess they could get out of hand quite easily. for me, i'd rather be remembered in a particular spot in the valley, like the examples mentioned above.
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In reply to andy brown:
I found more than 1 plaque dedicated to people last year In Orpierre, in one case literally half way up a 150m multipitch. The other was for Tito which brings a very sad and depressing air to the whole crag. Whilst I understand the need for some kind of release for the families/friends there must be a better place, or way to do it. Seems selfish to want them removed but I know I wouldnt want a memorial plaque left at the scene of my death.
I found more than 1 plaque dedicated to people last year In Orpierre, in one case literally half way up a 150m multipitch. The other was for Tito which brings a very sad and depressing air to the whole crag. Whilst I understand the need for some kind of release for the families/friends there must be a better place, or way to do it. Seems selfish to want them removed but I know I wouldnt want a memorial plaque left at the scene of my death.
In reply to andy brown:
Remove them.
Our village benches get festooned with flowers for grandma, dad, mum, son etc etc. luckily our village cleaner bins them quickly.
I got really annoyed a few months ago when the bench overlooking the bay I use for birdwatching had memorial plaque screwed to it, and someone had tipped their grandads ashes in a big pile in front of it!! the annoying bit? The memorial bench used was that put there by my family, who have lived in the village for a few hundred years and was a memorial to my uncle - this was clearly stated on the bench.!
Remove them.
Our village benches get festooned with flowers for grandma, dad, mum, son etc etc. luckily our village cleaner bins them quickly.
I got really annoyed a few months ago when the bench overlooking the bay I use for birdwatching had memorial plaque screwed to it, and someone had tipped their grandads ashes in a big pile in front of it!! the annoying bit? The memorial bench used was that put there by my family, who have lived in the village for a few hundred years and was a memorial to my uncle - this was clearly stated on the bench.!
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In reply to andy brown:
There's one on Fleetwith Pike, big white cross and another at Wythop for some bloke who fell off his horse, should they be removed by the UKC daily mail massive to? You can see them for miles.
They don't bother me, loads in the Alps and Dollies...
There's one on Fleetwith Pike, big white cross and another at Wythop for some bloke who fell off his horse, should they be removed by the UKC daily mail massive to? You can see them for miles.
They don't bother me, loads in the Alps and Dollies...
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In reply to andy brown:
Can you use it as a foothold? I find the starting moves of Pygmy quite bouldery...
Can you use it as a foothold? I find the starting moves of Pygmy quite bouldery...
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In reply to andy brown:
Big debate in Scotland about 10 years ago on this very subject.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4242576.stm
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/mag_sm28_page2.asp
I'm of the opinion they shouldn't be placed on the hills. We scattered my brother's ashes to the four winds on Ingleborough. The view is our lasting memorial.
Big debate in Scotland about 10 years ago on this very subject.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4242576.stm
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/mag_sm28_page2.asp
I'm of the opinion they shouldn't be placed on the hills. We scattered my brother's ashes to the four winds on Ingleborough. The view is our lasting memorial.
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In reply to Jamie B:
I thought you very against these following the Ben Nevis bench saga you started?
I thought you very against these following the Ben Nevis bench saga you started?
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In reply to Gael Force:
I'm having a laugh. I'm against plaques, but once placed their removal becomes a tightrope act between environmental ethics and the sensitivities of the bereaved.
I'm having a laugh. I'm against plaques, but once placed their removal becomes a tightrope act between environmental ethics and the sensitivities of the bereaved.
In reply to andy brown:
I also seem to remember that there were numerous ones on the Ben until they too were removed some twenty years ago.
I also seem to remember that there were numerous ones on the Ben until they too were removed some twenty years ago.
In reply to andy brown:
Um, who's going to contact the relatives then and convey the news that a bunch of people on the net have decided their plaque should come down?
Don't get me wrong - it shouldn't have been put up; but the issue is now a bit more complicated. On balance I would leave it, but if others want it removed they should make an effort to contact the placer and offer to retuern it for siting elsewhere.
Just my tuppence
Um, who's going to contact the relatives then and convey the news that a bunch of people on the net have decided their plaque should come down?
Don't get me wrong - it shouldn't have been put up; but the issue is now a bit more complicated. On balance I would leave it, but if others want it removed they should make an effort to contact the placer and offer to retuern it for siting elsewhere.
Just my tuppence
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In reply to Jamie B:
Yeah wouldn't place one myself or want one for me, but sensitive once they're in place to remove...similar situation to the roadside ones which are becoming quite common place, almost every bend on some alpine passes
Yeah wouldn't place one myself or want one for me, but sensitive once they're in place to remove...similar situation to the roadside ones which are becoming quite common place, almost every bend on some alpine passes
Post edited at 14:02
In reply to Gael Force:
Yes, I found it the same in the mountains of Corsica. A cross on almos t every bend in the road. Came across a huge cross and on stopping too look closer found a coach had gone off the road there! The deep valleys below the roads sometimes still have the mangled wreckage of vehicles at the bottom.
Makes you slow down if nothing else!
> Yeah wouldn't place one myself or want one for me, but sensitive once they're in place to remove...similar situation to the roadside ones which are becoming quite common place, almost every bend on some alpine passes
Yes, I found it the same in the mountains of Corsica. A cross on almos t every bend in the road. Came across a huge cross and on stopping too look closer found a coach had gone off the road there! The deep valleys below the roads sometimes still have the mangled wreckage of vehicles at the bottom.
Makes you slow down if nothing else!
Post edited at 14:17
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In reply to Yourlead:
That's it exactly. In isolation it would be a nice idea but in practice it's just not compatible with the general ethos of 'leaving only footprints' in the hills so everyone else can enjoy them too. Even worse at the foot of a route!
Folk will just have to do without memorials. Go into the hills, sit down and reflect on a lost friend/relative, but don't leave mementos or deface the landscape.
>
> All very sad and deepest sympathies to the friends and family's involved, but this is no place for memorials like this and they should be removed. The hills will otherwise be littered with memorials, destroying what we all seek out in our mountains.
>
> All very sad and deepest sympathies to the friends and family's involved, but this is no place for memorials like this and they should be removed. The hills will otherwise be littered with memorials, destroying what we all seek out in our mountains.
>
That's it exactly. In isolation it would be a nice idea but in practice it's just not compatible with the general ethos of 'leaving only footprints' in the hills so everyone else can enjoy them too. Even worse at the foot of a route!
Folk will just have to do without memorials. Go into the hills, sit down and reflect on a lost friend/relative, but don't leave mementos or deface the landscape.
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In reply to JJL:
Hmm, at the risk of being thought insensitive and heartless, I'd go with simply removing it.
No-one?
> On balance I would leave it, but if others want it removed they should make an effort to contact the placer and offer to retuern it for siting elsewhere.
Hmm, at the risk of being thought insensitive and heartless, I'd go with simply removing it.
> Um, who's going to contact the relatives then and convey the news that a bunch of people on the net have decided their plaque should come down?
No-one?
Post edited at 15:41
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In reply to abseil:
Judge jury and executioner. Do you know whether they asked the landowner's permission or not?
Judge jury and executioner. Do you know whether they asked the landowner's permission or not?
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
I have half a memory of a post or something similar at the top of either Carn Etchachan or the SHelter stone. I belayed of it and distinctly remember that it had a rope groove put in at the base.
This was nearly 20 years ago and i haven't seen it since (but it may get buried). Ring any bells?
James
I have half a memory of a post or something similar at the top of either Carn Etchachan or the SHelter stone. I belayed of it and distinctly remember that it had a rope groove put in at the base.
This was nearly 20 years ago and i haven't seen it since (but it may get buried). Ring any bells?
James
In reply to James Edwards:
There's a memorial/plaque at the top of Shelterstone Crag. I actually had no problem with it as it seemed to be an isolated thing and quite nice. I realise this argument doesn't really stack up though. Maybe it should go?
There's a memorial/plaque at the top of Shelterstone Crag. I actually had no problem with it as it seemed to be an isolated thing and quite nice. I realise this argument doesn't really stack up though. Maybe it should go?
In reply to andy brown:
Story time...
I was in a corrie in the north of Arran with a D of E group and the sun glinted off what was a stainless steel memorial plaque to a climber who had fallen off the Cioch na h-Oighe ridge - discretely sited higher up, except for the sun giving it away.
A chum with a school group on a remote slope in the Arrochar hills was telling them it was around there in this lonely setting that someone had ended their life. As they sat down for a bite to eat a kid spotted a plaque right beside them.
I don't think anyone would bother too much at these intrusions but at the start up a route......
PS a few months ago a giant pile of ashes were tipped out prominently on summit of Ben Lomond - must have lasted a while.
Story time...
I was in a corrie in the north of Arran with a D of E group and the sun glinted off what was a stainless steel memorial plaque to a climber who had fallen off the Cioch na h-Oighe ridge - discretely sited higher up, except for the sun giving it away.
A chum with a school group on a remote slope in the Arrochar hills was telling them it was around there in this lonely setting that someone had ended their life. As they sat down for a bite to eat a kid spotted a plaque right beside them.
I don't think anyone would bother too much at these intrusions but at the start up a route......
PS a few months ago a giant pile of ashes were tipped out prominently on summit of Ben Lomond - must have lasted a while.
In reply to gilliesp:
There's one about 15 metres below the summit of Buachaille Etive Mor from 2003 too.
There's one about 15 metres below the summit of Buachaille Etive Mor from 2003 too.
The Bruce Memorial in Glen Trool is surrounded by piles of poorly-scattered ashes. I was there with my sister, who was a doctor, and she was remarking on the poor crenelation, which she blamed on the site in Carlisle. Crenelation is the grinding done to make the ash after cremation. She reckoned she could make out part of a hip bone. Most people don't realise quite how much ash there is.
You really don't want to be part of a pile of remains in a beauty spot, do you?
When she died, I was careful to spread her ashes in the sea and make sure they did not settle. When we want to remember her, that lovely place is one of the images that comes to mind. No plaque needed there.
You really don't want to be part of a pile of remains in a beauty spot, do you?
When she died, I was careful to spread her ashes in the sea and make sure they did not settle. When we want to remember her, that lovely place is one of the images that comes to mind. No plaque needed there.
In reply to andy brown:
Hi Andy,
Trust you're well mate - good to see you up in Scotland again...but you shouldn't need to be taking clients past things like that. My feeling is that mountains are not the place for memorials like that and they should be removed to another location. It's probably more education that's required.....
Best regards,
ANdy
Hi Andy,
Trust you're well mate - good to see you up in Scotland again...but you shouldn't need to be taking clients past things like that. My feeling is that mountains are not the place for memorials like that and they should be removed to another location. It's probably more education that's required.....
Best regards,
ANdy
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Judge and jury, I agree, but only in that I failed to consider whether they asked the owner's permission or not - sorry about that. But not executioner - I didn't suggest that the memorial be removed, unlike many on this thread - why don't you respond to their posts now?
Also, what is your opinion on the memorial?
> Judge jury and executioner. Do you know whether they asked the landowner's permission or not?
Judge and jury, I agree, but only in that I failed to consider whether they asked the owner's permission or not - sorry about that. But not executioner - I didn't suggest that the memorial be removed, unlike many on this thread - why don't you respond to their posts now?
Also, what is your opinion on the memorial?
In reply to andy brown:
I don't agree to the practice but found myself recently attending such a memorial party. The mountain in question is more like a park outing and the owner of the land assisted with the event. I try to see this a positive but my gut feeling was thinking other.
I don't agree with any individual act of removal. You might as well go kick over the grave stone. But an organised clear up similar to Ben Nevis seems the best course.
The subject of ashes spreading people could do with a bit more care. I was eating sitting in rocks in the Galloway hills when I spotted a burgundy tub. Thinking it may be a summit box of sorts I opened it up but it was empty. I then realised what it was with sandwich in hand. Not nice!
I don't agree to the practice but found myself recently attending such a memorial party. The mountain in question is more like a park outing and the owner of the land assisted with the event. I try to see this a positive but my gut feeling was thinking other.
I don't agree with any individual act of removal. You might as well go kick over the grave stone. But an organised clear up similar to Ben Nevis seems the best course.
The subject of ashes spreading people could do with a bit more care. I was eating sitting in rocks in the Galloway hills when I spotted a burgundy tub. Thinking it may be a summit box of sorts I opened it up but it was empty. I then realised what it was with sandwich in hand. Not nice!
In reply to andy brown:
I don't think a memorial fixed on a crag or rock on a mountain is a good thing, with or without landowners permission.
However a small plaque on the handrail of a bridge in a wild place always seems very appropriate to me. A place on a journey to just maybe stop and contemplate another for a moment.
I don't think a memorial fixed on a crag or rock on a mountain is a good thing, with or without landowners permission.
However a small plaque on the handrail of a bridge in a wild place always seems very appropriate to me. A place on a journey to just maybe stop and contemplate another for a moment.
In reply to abseil:
Hi mate, sorry, been working antisocial shifts, hence late reply. My opinion - personally I don't mind them. I think the "leave nothing but footprints" thing is a great soundbite but we all leave a lot more than that, and we all konw we do, yet then we all cherry pick what we don't approve of and brouhaha and froth about it!!!!
Hi mate, sorry, been working antisocial shifts, hence late reply. My opinion - personally I don't mind them. I think the "leave nothing but footprints" thing is a great soundbite but we all leave a lot more than that, and we all konw we do, yet then we all cherry pick what we don't approve of and brouhaha and froth about it!!!!
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In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Hi mate yourself Nick, and thanks for your reply. You're right about cherry picking, that's me all over, just ask Mrs Abseil, frothing at the mouth too!! Now where's my Daily Mail...
> Hi mate, sorry, been working antisocial shifts, hence late reply. My opinion - personally I don't mind them. I think the "leave nothing but footprints" thing is a great soundbite but we all leave a lot more than that, and we all konw we do, yet then we all cherry pick what we don't approve of and brouhaha and froth about it!!!!
Hi mate yourself Nick, and thanks for your reply. You're right about cherry picking, that's me all over, just ask Mrs Abseil, frothing at the mouth too!! Now where's my Daily Mail...
In reply to andy brown:
The answer is to remove the plaques - sensitively - and re-locate them to a designated memorial site. So Cairngorms car park or Ben Nevis car park are likely spots. Then make a general announcement in the press to include the relatives, firstly about where they can now find the memorial to their loved ones and secondly to give a reasoned argument as to why this has happened.
This then allows the relatives to visit the memorial more easily. The memorial is still in a place that takes in the location of the tragedy and it also allows others to pause and reflect.
Lastly, there should be a general sign (perhaps part of the existing signage) which references the accepted practice for memorials and which outlines that any placed in the mountain environment will be removed to the designated memorial site.
The answer is to remove the plaques - sensitively - and re-locate them to a designated memorial site. So Cairngorms car park or Ben Nevis car park are likely spots. Then make a general announcement in the press to include the relatives, firstly about where they can now find the memorial to their loved ones and secondly to give a reasoned argument as to why this has happened.
This then allows the relatives to visit the memorial more easily. The memorial is still in a place that takes in the location of the tragedy and it also allows others to pause and reflect.
Lastly, there should be a general sign (perhaps part of the existing signage) which references the accepted practice for memorials and which outlines that any placed in the mountain environment will be removed to the designated memorial site.
Post edited at 01:38
In reply to Removed User:
.....like the memorial garden tucked away at Popradsko Plesom in the Slovak Tatry, I always thought it very sensitive and sympathetic.
http://www.vysoketatry.com/ciele/scintorin/en.html
.....like the memorial garden tucked away at Popradsko Plesom in the Slovak Tatry, I always thought it very sensitive and sympathetic.
http://www.vysoketatry.com/ciele/scintorin/en.html
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In reply to Murko Fuzz:
I was going to say the same thing. Its really powerful and beautiful. There is a small one in the west tatres too, near to Ziarska chata
I was going to say the same thing. Its really powerful and beautiful. There is a small one in the west tatres too, near to Ziarska chata
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In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
What a daft attiude: some stuff gets left so we might as well give up and have a free for all. Still, given your crazy views on fixed gear on winter routes, at least you are consistent.
> (In reply to abseil)
>
> My opinion - personally I don't mind them. I think the "leave nothing but footprints" thing is a great soundbite but we all leave a lot more than that, and we all konw we do, yet then we all cherry pick what we don't approve of and brouhaha and froth about it!!!!
>
> My opinion - personally I don't mind them. I think the "leave nothing but footprints" thing is a great soundbite but we all leave a lot more than that, and we all konw we do, yet then we all cherry pick what we don't approve of and brouhaha and froth about it!!!!
What a daft attiude: some stuff gets left so we might as well give up and have a free for all. Still, given your crazy views on fixed gear on winter routes, at least you are consistent.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Agreed, was trying to rack my brain and think whether I do in fact leave anything other than footprints, and I dont think I have or will. Do you mean litter, or something that I seem to have missed?
Genuinely interested as to what you think everyone leaves? Not in a judgmental way. Honestly can't think of anything people would leave other than litter.
(Not sure how to change it to reply to Nickinscottishmountains)
Agreed, was trying to rack my brain and think whether I do in fact leave anything other than footprints, and I dont think I have or will. Do you mean litter, or something that I seem to have missed?
Genuinely interested as to what you think everyone leaves? Not in a judgmental way. Honestly can't think of anything people would leave other than litter.
(Not sure how to change it to reply to Nickinscottishmountains)
Post edited at 13:50
1
In reply to CharlieMack:
With me or with Nickinscottishmountains?!
> Agreed......
With me or with Nickinscottishmountains?!
> (Not sure how to change it to reply to Nickinscottishmountains)
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
I disagree. I don't know how many times I've argued here (and in various books) that the ideal, surely, is to "leave no sign of our passing"? Any big, noticeable footprint on a mountain path is a bit of a balls-up really. It's amazing how often one can leave no trace by using stepping stones etc. Adds to the interest of walking, imho.
> Hi mate, sorry, been working antisocial shifts, hence late reply. My opinion - personally I don't mind them. I think the "leave nothing but footprints" thing is a great soundbite but we all leave a lot more than that, and we all konw we do, yet then we all cherry pick what we don't approve of and brouhaha and froth about it!!!!
I disagree. I don't know how many times I've argued here (and in various books) that the ideal, surely, is to "leave no sign of our passing"? Any big, noticeable footprint on a mountain path is a bit of a balls-up really. It's amazing how often one can leave no trace by using stepping stones etc. Adds to the interest of walking, imho.
1
In reply to Robert Durran:
Agree with you Robert, but the rest of the post is directed towards nick.
Agree with you Robert, but the rest of the post is directed towards nick.
In reply to andy brown:
Thanks, Andy, for pointing this out, and Heather Morning for drawing my attention to it.
When something is installed it becomes the property of the landowner, unless agreed otherwise. I hope UKC users will be pleased to know that Highlands and Islands Enterprise, as the land owner of the Northern Corries of Cairngorm has a policy of maintaining as near natural conditions as possible, consistent with open access. As Head Ranger for Cairngorm Estate I do my best to carry this out.
Having consulted on the basis of the postings on this forum, all memorials will be removed unilaterally. If it is possible to contact the families of the deceased, I would be interested to discuss with them the future of the memorials. There is a mountain garden not far from the car park at Cairngorm which contains a few memorials and piles of ashes which is much more accessible to less active members of the bereaved families, and any memorials placed here, in consultation with the operator of the garden, would be respectfully maintained. If anyone is able to put the families in touch, I would be pleased to hear from them.
We would plan to remove the memorials after this winter, and would urge anyone considering making a memorial on Cairngorm Estate to get in touch with the Estate first, through myself or Highlands and Islands Enterprise. I will offer a sympathetic response, but not at the expense of our wild mountain area, as there may be a solution which provides those wishing to see the memorial with a good location, without distracting those who come after.
Thanks, Andy, for pointing this out, and Heather Morning for drawing my attention to it.
When something is installed it becomes the property of the landowner, unless agreed otherwise. I hope UKC users will be pleased to know that Highlands and Islands Enterprise, as the land owner of the Northern Corries of Cairngorm has a policy of maintaining as near natural conditions as possible, consistent with open access. As Head Ranger for Cairngorm Estate I do my best to carry this out.
Having consulted on the basis of the postings on this forum, all memorials will be removed unilaterally. If it is possible to contact the families of the deceased, I would be interested to discuss with them the future of the memorials. There is a mountain garden not far from the car park at Cairngorm which contains a few memorials and piles of ashes which is much more accessible to less active members of the bereaved families, and any memorials placed here, in consultation with the operator of the garden, would be respectfully maintained. If anyone is able to put the families in touch, I would be pleased to hear from them.
We would plan to remove the memorials after this winter, and would urge anyone considering making a memorial on Cairngorm Estate to get in touch with the Estate first, through myself or Highlands and Islands Enterprise. I will offer a sympathetic response, but not at the expense of our wild mountain area, as there may be a solution which provides those wishing to see the memorial with a good location, without distracting those who come after.
18
1
In reply to CharlieMack:
Turds perhaps?
> Agreed, was trying to rack my brain and think whether I do in fact leave anything other than footprints, and I dont think I have or will. Do you mean litter, or something that I seem to have missed? >
Turds perhaps?
In reply to andy brown:
Mountains and landscape as memorial is topic that has been researched by various people
This is an interesting Phd paper - 'Landscape, absence and the geographies of love' by John Wylie
http://bit.ly/1Bj62iF
John MacPherson has written about some of my work on the Duckrabbit blog 'The landscape of emotion' > http://www.duckrabbit.info/2013/01/the-landscape-of-emotion/
Mountains and landscape as memorial is topic that has been researched by various people
This is an interesting Phd paper - 'Landscape, absence and the geographies of love' by John Wylie
http://bit.ly/1Bj62iF
John MacPherson has written about some of my work on the Duckrabbit blog 'The landscape of emotion' > http://www.duckrabbit.info/2013/01/the-landscape-of-emotion/
1
In reply to andy brown:
There are many military memorials dating back to WW2 scattered around the Scottish countryside, should these be "tidied up"? I don't believe anyone would suggest that.
There's a particularily poignant and regularily visited one above L Maree to an American bomber taking the crew home at the end of the war, I think it enhances this remote and beautiful place and is entirely "appropriate". That's only one of several I can think of.
There are now 4, yes 4, benches on the path up Ben y Vrackie above Pitlochry, one is a memorial to an RAF pilot who died abroad. Are these OK, its not a remote location and arguably barely counts as a proper mountain?
Its difficult to be absolute about these memorials except perhaps to say leave the ones already there and remove all new ones.
There are many military memorials dating back to WW2 scattered around the Scottish countryside, should these be "tidied up"? I don't believe anyone would suggest that.
There's a particularily poignant and regularily visited one above L Maree to an American bomber taking the crew home at the end of the war, I think it enhances this remote and beautiful place and is entirely "appropriate". That's only one of several I can think of.
There are now 4, yes 4, benches on the path up Ben y Vrackie above Pitlochry, one is a memorial to an RAF pilot who died abroad. Are these OK, its not a remote location and arguably barely counts as a proper mountain?
Its difficult to be absolute about these memorials except perhaps to say leave the ones already there and remove all new ones.
In reply to mcdweeb:
Out of interest, where abouts is the Loch Maree one?
This should probably be looked at on a case by case basis. Once a new memorial is put in place it becomes 'already there' so that doesn't seem a good rule to follow.
Out of interest, where abouts is the Loch Maree one?
This should probably be looked at on a case by case basis. Once a new memorial is put in place it becomes 'already there' so that doesn't seem a good rule to follow.
In reply to andy brown:
Just wondering what should be done about the CIC hut, its a memorial. Personally I'm not fussed about these things. Perhaps the summit of a mountain is the correct place fixed to the summit cairn.
RN
Just wondering what should be done about the CIC hut, its a memorial. Personally I'm not fussed about these things. Perhaps the summit of a mountain is the correct place fixed to the summit cairn.
RN
1
In reply to mcdweeb:
A quite recent addition to the top of Dumyat (Ochils) here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/garethlynn/15751055332/in/set-721576487937554...
The jury is still out for me to be honest especially this one as it isn't exactly the smallest.
cheers
Gaz
A quite recent addition to the top of Dumyat (Ochils) here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/garethlynn/15751055332/in/set-721576487937554...
The jury is still out for me to be honest especially this one as it isn't exactly the smallest.
cheers
Gaz
In reply to Gazlynn:
In my entirely personal opinion, that is not appropriate.
> A quite recent addition to the top of Dumyat (Ochils) here
In my entirely personal opinion, that is not appropriate.
4
In reply to Coel Hellier:
Agreed. The design is quite vulgar and incongrous, bearing no relationship to its surroundings. It's worth remembering how modest the Great War one is on top of Great Gable.
Agreed. The design is quite vulgar and incongrous, bearing no relationship to its surroundings. It's worth remembering how modest the Great War one is on top of Great Gable.
1
In reply to Gazlynn:
It's not a design that I'd have chosen, but remembrance of those who served in the Armed Forces seems beyond criticism, so I'll keep my head down. (Though I will say that the hypocrisy staggers me sometimes)
As noted above, the hills belong to the landowners. Like when everyone got exercised about that prat Jeremy Clarkson driving up to the top of a mountain in a Range Rover- if the Landowner says that's OK, who are we to argue?
It's not a design that I'd have chosen, but remembrance of those who served in the Armed Forces seems beyond criticism, so I'll keep my head down. (Though I will say that the hypocrisy staggers me sometimes)
As noted above, the hills belong to the landowners. Like when everyone got exercised about that prat Jeremy Clarkson driving up to the top of a mountain in a Range Rover- if the Landowner says that's OK, who are we to argue?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Agreed. Also, as its supposedly a memorial to the Argyll + Sutherland Highlanders why is it even in the Ochills ( Clackmannanshire) ??
1
In reply to Gazlynn:
Looks horrendously out of place (used to live in Blairlogie so know the hill quite well)
Looks horrendously out of place (used to live in Blairlogie so know the hill quite well)
1
In reply to blurty:
Well no, there are a whole lot of rules and laws about what landowners can do with their land. Planning permission laws, for example, laws about quarrying, wind farms, etc. We as a society are perfectly entitled to involvement in decisions about land in this country. The right-to-roam legislation is one example of that.
> As noted above, the hills belong to the landowners. Like when everyone got exercised about that prat Jeremy Clarkson driving up to the
> top of a mountain in a Range Rover- if the Landowner says that's OK, who are we to argue?
> top of a mountain in a Range Rover- if the Landowner says that's OK, who are we to argue?
Well no, there are a whole lot of rules and laws about what landowners can do with their land. Planning permission laws, for example, laws about quarrying, wind farms, etc. We as a society are perfectly entitled to involvement in decisions about land in this country. The right-to-roam legislation is one example of that.
In reply to L.A.:
The Argylls recruited from Clackmannanshire (among other areas), their HQ used to be at Stirling Castle, 3.5miles away, it still houses the regimental museum. Thin Red Line and all that.
Edited to add : just checked - Dumyat is is Stirlingshire...
FWIW I think the memorial is out of place as well, though 'vulgar' is OTT.
> Agreed. Also, as its supposedly a memorial to the Argyll + Sutherland Highlanders why is it even in the Ochills ( Clackmannanshire) ??
The Argylls recruited from Clackmannanshire (among other areas), their HQ used to be at Stirling Castle, 3.5miles away, it still houses the regimental museum. Thin Red Line and all that.
Edited to add : just checked - Dumyat is is Stirlingshire...
FWIW I think the memorial is out of place as well, though 'vulgar' is OTT.
Post edited at 10:32
In reply to drmarten:
I don't live in the area anymore but surely this must have had to obtain planning permission ? how on earth was it accepted ?
The design would be OK if it was on the castle esplanade, but is totally out of place on top of a hill
I don't live in the area anymore but surely this must have had to obtain planning permission ? how on earth was it accepted ?
The design would be OK if it was on the castle esplanade, but is totally out of place on top of a hill
1
In reply to Doug:
Dave Hewitt would be the man with the background I think. It belongs on the esplanade for another reason - access. I've not been up Dumyat (closest I've been is Blairdenon) but I don't see how this location allows people who may have restricted physical ability to visit and pay their respects.
Dave Hewitt would be the man with the background I think. It belongs on the esplanade for another reason - access. I've not been up Dumyat (closest I've been is Blairdenon) but I don't see how this location allows people who may have restricted physical ability to visit and pay their respects.
1
In reply to mcdweeb:
Surely it's a question of permission. What is the process for obtaining permission in the Cairngorms currently? If talking about WWII relics, do these predate the current ownership? If no records were kept about possible permissions prior to the exisiting ownership then it seems a lot more complicated to remove them. Anything not removed surely needs some some of protected status? I agreed that it is not appropriate to erect memorials in the Scottish hills without permission from the relavent landowner though. Where climbing areas are involved I assume the BMC have some sort of shared decision-making with the landowner?
Surely it's a question of permission. What is the process for obtaining permission in the Cairngorms currently? If talking about WWII relics, do these predate the current ownership? If no records were kept about possible permissions prior to the exisiting ownership then it seems a lot more complicated to remove them. Anything not removed surely needs some some of protected status? I agreed that it is not appropriate to erect memorials in the Scottish hills without permission from the relavent landowner though. Where climbing areas are involved I assume the BMC have some sort of shared decision-making with the landowner?
In reply to andy brown:
I think that placing any sort of artefact in wild space is a little bit imperialist in mentality. For whatever reasons the person that does so is requisitioning a part of something that should belong to everyone/no-one for their own personal memories/grief. I hope it is possible to question/reverse the act without being accused of insensitivity to those feelings.
I think that placing any sort of artefact in wild space is a little bit imperialist in mentality. For whatever reasons the person that does so is requisitioning a part of something that should belong to everyone/no-one for their own personal memories/grief. I hope it is possible to question/reverse the act without being accused of insensitivity to those feelings.
3
In reply to Jamie B:
Though equally the person leaving the memorial could well be viewing it the opposite way, as incorporating their loved one into the greater landscape
> For whatever reasons the person that does so is requisitioning a part of something that should belong to everyone/no-one for their own personal memories/grief
Though equally the person leaving the memorial could well be viewing it the opposite way, as incorporating their loved one into the greater landscape
In reply to Michael Gordon:
The "L Maree" aircrash site is about a km south of Shieldaig/Badachro road which is south of Gairloch.
The plane clipped the top of Slioch, managed to cross L Maree until it hit the hillside of Sithean Mor. There is quite a bit of debris there still, a memorial plaque and some Tibetan style prayer flags or there were last year.
There's a half decent path now and its something of a local attraction. I don't think anyone else would go there unless they were fishermen if it weren't for the crash. Its actually a beautiful spot if the weather is right.
The "L Maree" aircrash site is about a km south of Shieldaig/Badachro road which is south of Gairloch.
The plane clipped the top of Slioch, managed to cross L Maree until it hit the hillside of Sithean Mor. There is quite a bit of debris there still, a memorial plaque and some Tibetan style prayer flags or there were last year.
There's a half decent path now and its something of a local attraction. I don't think anyone else would go there unless they were fishermen if it weren't for the crash. Its actually a beautiful spot if the weather is right.
In reply to Trangia:
Absolutely! That's just what I was going to post. Perhaps there should be a memorial in Fort William/Aviemore for such things? The British ethic of trying to leave the hills free from metal should be maintained.
NMM
> Like the graveyard at the English church in Zermatt?
Absolutely! That's just what I was going to post. Perhaps there should be a memorial in Fort William/Aviemore for such things? The British ethic of trying to leave the hills free from metal should be maintained.
NMM
In reply to drmarten:
I've not been on Dumyat anywhere near as many times as I have on the higher Ochils further along (it's a bit too straight up and straight down again for my taste), but I am up there every month or so and have seen the new memorial a couple of times. It replaces a smaller and less obtrusive shield-shaped one that was tucked in beneath the big bucket cairn:
http://www.go4awalk.com/walkphotographs/peterschofield2.jpg
I haven't measured it, but the new one is much bigger - feels like around ten times the size - and sits astride the summit ridge so is much more obvious (and trip-over-able if wandering along looking at the view or nattering):
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7524/15103738914_4ca5829aa3.jpg
At least they didn't blast or chisel away the little outcrop NW of the cairn that some people reckon might be the actual highpoint of the hill, but there does appear to have been a degree of excavation to get the thing in place. Thus far I've not met or spoken with anyone who has seen it and has liked it - the general mood seems to be unimpressed, and I know of one person who has written to someone to complain. It would be interesting to hear what some of the real Dumyat regulars think - the 1000-ascent people such as Russell who posts on Walkhighlands/Scottish Hills, and various of the Ochil Hill Runners eg Alex King and Andrea Priestley.
One thing that is probably worth noting is that the new memorial is going rusty already. It was only late Sept / early Oct when it was installed - there's a pretty dull video of the first helicopter drop here:
youtube.com/watch?v=fjAFWoS8ntQ&
but last time I was up, in January, I met a friend and he said come and look at this, it's going rusty already - and so it was.
Incidentally, it always strikes me as slightly curious that the cross on Ben Ledi hardly ever seems to feature in these kind of discussions. It's big and prominent, and is a memorial to a mountain rescuer who died in the line of duty, but he died on a different hill (Ben More at Crianlarich):
http://killin.mountainrescuescotland.org/harry-lawrie-bem-remembered/
> Dave Hewitt would be the man with the background I think.
I've not been on Dumyat anywhere near as many times as I have on the higher Ochils further along (it's a bit too straight up and straight down again for my taste), but I am up there every month or so and have seen the new memorial a couple of times. It replaces a smaller and less obtrusive shield-shaped one that was tucked in beneath the big bucket cairn:
http://www.go4awalk.com/walkphotographs/peterschofield2.jpg
I haven't measured it, but the new one is much bigger - feels like around ten times the size - and sits astride the summit ridge so is much more obvious (and trip-over-able if wandering along looking at the view or nattering):
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7524/15103738914_4ca5829aa3.jpg
At least they didn't blast or chisel away the little outcrop NW of the cairn that some people reckon might be the actual highpoint of the hill, but there does appear to have been a degree of excavation to get the thing in place. Thus far I've not met or spoken with anyone who has seen it and has liked it - the general mood seems to be unimpressed, and I know of one person who has written to someone to complain. It would be interesting to hear what some of the real Dumyat regulars think - the 1000-ascent people such as Russell who posts on Walkhighlands/Scottish Hills, and various of the Ochil Hill Runners eg Alex King and Andrea Priestley.
One thing that is probably worth noting is that the new memorial is going rusty already. It was only late Sept / early Oct when it was installed - there's a pretty dull video of the first helicopter drop here:
youtube.com/watch?v=fjAFWoS8ntQ&
but last time I was up, in January, I met a friend and he said come and look at this, it's going rusty already - and so it was.
Incidentally, it always strikes me as slightly curious that the cross on Ben Ledi hardly ever seems to feature in these kind of discussions. It's big and prominent, and is a memorial to a mountain rescuer who died in the line of duty, but he died on a different hill (Ben More at Crianlarich):
http://killin.mountainrescuescotland.org/harry-lawrie-bem-remembered/
Post edited at 15:22
In reply to mcdweeb:
Thanks. I haven't seen it yet obviously but it sounds like it has more positives than negatives.
Thanks. I haven't seen it yet obviously but it sounds like it has more positives than negatives.
In reply to Gazlynn:
That's awful! Looks huge and visually jarring, not at all with keeping with the landscape. I hope the wreaths etc were removed again.
That's awful! Looks huge and visually jarring, not at all with keeping with the landscape. I hope the wreaths etc were removed again.
1
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