UKH

At the moment I am undertaking an EPQ (extended project qualification) valued at around an As exam to help with univercity application. My project aims to answer wether George Mallory and Sandy Irvine reached the top of Everest in 1924. As most people have different opinions on my question I was wondering if anyone on the forum could share their opinion on the matter to help me make my mind up on the mystery. Thanks for any advice.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

It's a mystery - we don't know! How will peoples' opinions on here help to solve that?

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

Without meaning to sound harsh, people have been pondering the question for the best part of a century. I think your project of "aiming to answer the question" is doomed to failure.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:
Were they capable of climbing it? Yes. I think so.
Did they climb to the summit? I don't think we will ever know.

In reply to Bulls Crack:
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I am not looking to solve the mystery, just wanted to hear other peoples opinions from the evidence available at the moment so that I can make my own opinion, I realise that doing a relativly small project won't be able to put an end to it all thats why people still don't know if he got to the top after 90 odd years!

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

My advice?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but surely the first stage of a univercity (sic) application would be spelling university correctly.

(I'll overlook wether!)

In reply to Oceanrower:

Might be a start...

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

Have a look at Graham Hoyland's book 'Last hours on Everest'
http://www.malloryeverest.com/

It gives a very interesting, and to my mind compelling, exploration of the available evidence, including an analysis of weather reports. His conclusion is that they didn't make it.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

After reading "The ghosts of Everest" , an account of the search for Mallory and Irvine I am of the opinion that they did reach the summit.

Mallory's body was found and he had died after breaking his leg in a fall. His body was remarkably well preserved.

The way the snow is diminishing on Everest it may not be too long before Irvine's body is found. I would like to think that that when he is found he has with him Mallory's camera containing pictures taken on the summit.

I don't think that it would take anything away from the incredible achievement of Hilary and Tenzing . Hilary said "It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves."

I am sure that he was the type of bloke who would think it fantastic news.

In reply to tony:

Thanks for the suggestion, I have read 'Last hours on Everest' and found the analysis of weather reports very revealing. I hadn't realised that at the time of the attempt barametric pressure was so low.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

Have a look at Wade Davis's book Into the Silence (or at least the final chapters).

In reply to mgco3:

I haven't read 'The ghosts of Everest' yet, what arguments did you find most compelling in the book which made you think he did summit, I have found that much of the available literature concludes that he didn't make it.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

My sports therapist says no and I'm leaving it at that.she did tell me the reason but I can't remember as she had her fists wedged in my back at the time and I had all on trying to hold the tears back

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

I know it is a bit of a long shot, but my "theory" is:-

Mallory was found with kit intact, but his camera was missing. I would like to think that ,to limit the time on the summit as the weather was coming in, Mallory got Irvine to take his camera out of his back pack so he didn't have to take the pack off.(Not much room on the summit to take a pack off) Irvine then took a picture of Mallory, handed the camera to Mallory so that he could take a picture of Irvine and then , again, to save time Mallory put the camera into Irvine's pack before quickly descending.

A long shot or romantic notion but wasn't their climb just that?

In reply to mgco3:

That's what I like to tell myself, not sure if it's realistic though with the second step in the way.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

I'm not sure about 1924, but he did in in 1995.

In reply to Kipper:

Never knew that there was a George Mallory II!

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:


>My project aims to answer wether (sic) George Mallory and Sandy Irvine reached the top of Everest...

So, what are you trying to do?

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

Any expedition that takes six cases of vintage champagne with it deserves to have succeeded!

In reply to Skipinder:


You forgot the quails in aspic...!

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Mea culpa!

In reply to mgco3:

My theory is that Mallory may have reached the summit alone:

Mallory and Irvine reached the base of the second step together (possibly confirmed by Odell's sighting of them), this would have presented a formidable obstacle - Mallory as the more gifted climber attempted to scale this and eventually succeeded by employing combined tactics (reaching past at least some of the harder moves by standing on Irvine's shoulders, the rock face is only around 16 feet high), but this left Irvine unable to follow - apparently this is also how the Chinese expedition of 1960 claimed to surmount the step.
They were under the impression that the summit was close so Irvine waited below the step for Mallory to summit and return - the might explain the rumour that the Chinese expedition (the next men to reach this point) found a body on the ridge (unlikely to have been Mallory after the discovery of his body elsewhere in 1999).
Mallory was known for his forgetfulness and combined with operating at extreme altitude he fatefully forgot to take the camera from Irvine to the summit - so in this version of events if the camera were ever found on Irvine it would not have a summit shot.
Mallory continued alone and from the top of the second step the path to the summit is clear of major obstacles, so I believe he may have made it. The distance was greater than he or Irvine anticipated though and Irvine may have strayed from the point where they separated to seek better shelter as he awaited Mallory's return. As an exhausted Mallory (by now operating without supplementary oxygen) gets back to the second step darkness is probably falling, and after arranging a makeshift abseil descent it may well have been fully dark - in the dark and with Irvine possibly nearby but unresponsive after hours alone in the cold, Mallory concludes that Irvine must have headed back towards their high camp and elects to continue his descent alone. Before he reaches their camp he falls, ending up on the slopes where his body was discovered in 1999. The fact that Mallory's snow goggles were found in his pocket supports the theory that he was still moving after dark had fallen. The lack of the photo of his wife that he reputedly intended to place on the summit could also be a pointer that he reached the top.
What happened to Irvine's body (if it was ever seen by the Chinese) is a mystery, but perhaps it was relocated by storms or continues to lie hidden.

...well it's a theory and has less flaws than some others I have read.
Definitely read "Ghosts of Everest" along with Hoyland's "Last Hours on Everest" it is essential material for any investigation into this mystery.
Good luck, although it will be hard to write anything on the matter that has not already been said. For my sins I am also an EPQ supervisor at the College I work in, so would be fascinated to know how you get on ...are you finishing your project this academic year or next?

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

Sadly I don't think they did summit. The odds were just too heavily stacked against them back in those days with primitive oxygen apparatus and climbing equipment, no fixed ropes or ladder, no established route. With all the more modern innovations in mountaineering equipment and the infrastructure that exists on Everest today, Mallory at least would be able to stroll to the summit no problem.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

My Uncle, once removed, Albert Nummery inadvertently climbed Everest in 1923 but it was never officially recorded.
He was mooching round the general area looking to see if he could build a cafe on one of the summits and did a quick round of the Everest horseshoe, later he recorded in his diary thus:
“Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without a plate of fried squid at the summit, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end.”

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

A good question but in the absence of further evidence (should any come to light in future) there is probably little or nothing to add beyond the many good books already written on the subject.

I think Mallory, Irvine and other early climbers e.g. Norton are due enormous respect.

In reply to Cobbler:

Make my own opinion with all the available evidence even if there is not enough evidence to provide a answer that could be considered proof as to whether they summited or not.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Hi thanks for the theory, I will let you know how I get on with the project which I will finish next academic year.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

If you are doing this for a university application, some considered and carefully referenced research will do much more for you than canvassing the opinion of a bunch of UKCers.

That said, we are a clever bunch so likely to chuck up some good insights.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:
You might have more fun looking into whether Maurice Wilson* made the summit in 1934? His journey to the foot of the mountain was of Indiana Jones proportions and it's still a mystery whether he made it to the top (unlikely given his total lack of any climbing experience)

* MW is my all time hero and I like to believe that such an eccentric and amazing character could have made it. (You need to find his mirror on the summit ,he was going to use it to signal to a sherpa lower down and leave it there, then expect untold riches as you blow the climbing world away with the story of the century

I will climb Everest Alone is a fantastic read

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

As Max Factor says, there's a lot of research to do (well, reading up on other people's existing research.) If you do a search for 'mallory and irvine' on Amazon.co.uk, if you haven't already, you'll find that there are about 236 books to read!, and then the reports of the two research/reenactment trips made by Conrad Anker.

In reply to Max factor:

I do know that I could probobly get all the information needed from regular sources like books but in the project marks are awarded for a wide range of resouces, that is why I have asked the people on UKC.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

According to my Dad, the fact that Sandy Irvine is from Birkenhead is proof that he made the summit....

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Thanks for the ideas, although I don't really want to change my entire project I may well research Maurice Wilson and mention him in my report as he does sound like an interesting character.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Don't know if an examiner would buy that...

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

OK but how are you going to decide which opinions to base your own on?

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

FFS - give this tired old topic a rest!

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:


you might get lucky and find one from Birkenhead in which case its A*****

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:


One of my earliest climbing partners (although I think someone else has added the II to his name).

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan: Although it's a novel check out the book by Jeffrey Archer, Paths of Glory. It offers a possible answer!
Even so, this topic has had so much research done on it I doubt that it will light any fires as far as supporting an application for University goes.
I'm sure that you could find another mountaineering related topic to write about and be able to offer up opinions and options which your Mallory topic will not.
Best of luck anyway.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

The second step was almost certainly beyond them without ladders. I know it has been climbed without ladders and theoretically the grade is within Mallory's ability, but not at 8000m. The odds are just too heavily stacked against either of them making the summit by that route.

In reply to Chris_Mellor: That's a pretty moronic comment. You're saying that because something has been discussed at length many times before it should never be discussed again. Try not clicking on the thread if it makes uyou that upset.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:


In that case you can quote me as saying he might have done it.

hope that helps.

M

In reply to birdie num num:
Wise words..................

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:


I recently read this book and, while I've long harboured a hope (belief?) that they got to the top, I think that the barometric pressure data means that it would have been impossible for them.

In reply to The Ivanator:


...

I like your theory, but I'm not convinced that they would have even tried that route. Although it the normal route now, It wasn't back in those days.

In reply to Co1in H:


Despite my general antipathy towards Jeffrey Archer it's a ripping yarn and a real page turner!

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

In his autobiography, "Good-Bye to All That", Robert Graves wrote about climbing with Mallory pre WW1, and expressed his opinion that Mallory would have reached the summit. The book is well worth a read, although the climbing is only a very small part of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good-Bye_to_All_That - the Wikipedia entry does not refer to the climbing at all.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

I'd never heard of this EPQ, but I wish they'd had them when I was doing my A-levels - at the time I was reading every book on mountaineering that Clitheroe Library had and would have loved to be able to turn my research into something useful.

So my advice is to read as much as you can, try to keep an open mind and evaluate each theory fairly. No one knows for sure what happened, so don't be drawn into taking a side. Remember to list your sources.

Regardless of some of the negative comments above, it remains a topic which interests both mountaineers and non-mountaineers alike. Maybe once you've done your project, you could condense it into an article for this site.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Thanks for the advice, as I go I have been keeping a bibliography, I'd never keep track of all my sources otherwise! I was really lucky to come accross the EPQ as I too spent a lot of time reading up on mountaineering before the project. I would definitely think about writing an article for UKC providing there was sufficent interest.

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:
Apologies if it has been mentioned but The Wildest Dream might be worth a view. Conrad Anker and Leo Holding recreate the climb up the second step. Beautifully filmed, you get a very good idea of the Rock and problems Mallory might have faced. I think there is an idea that there was considerably more snow on the ridge in 1924 which might have made things easier.

In reply to hokkyokusei:

It is known that the ridge is the route that Mallory favoured and the sighting of the pair by Odell on their summit push would seem to confirm that they were on that route. There were other routes attempted on the early British expeditions, notably the Norton Couloir, but it is generally accepted that the Mallory and Irvine attempt was via the North Ridge itself.
I am certainly not advocating my theory as the only possible sequence of events and doubt over whether they reached the summit will persist as long as concrete evidence such as a photograph is missing

In reply to Hector Thornton-Swan:

Thanks for all the surgestions, it has been really helpful for my project.