First Aid Kits

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 webbie88 30 Jan 2015
I am currently having a reshuffle of all my kit and im struggling with my first aid kit as i always seem to want to pack too much.

So I was wondering what size of first aid kit use carry when walking/climbing and what you carry in it?

Jonny
In reply to webbie88:
bandages, bandages, bandages.


Seriously though, the one thing that lacking in most first aid kits I see is a serious lack of blood mopping up products which is likely to be a big problem if you can't stop it

I also carry some gaffer tape, a SAM splint, some scissors or a pen knife.
Post edited at 21:44
In reply to webbie88:

http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?n=575948

And then run away. Apparently, clingfilm and a credit card is all you need....
 boriselbrus 30 Jan 2015
In reply to webbie88:

Think about what you are likely to want to treat and what difference the stuff in your kit will make. Small plasters are irrelevant as is anything you can't improvise from other kit you are carrying.

If what you carry won't save a life, or enable you to carry on with your day then ditch it.

I take a large wound dressing, gaffer tape, a tourniquet, tough cut scissors and saline capsules for washing stuff out of eyes. In other words stuff for getting to what I need to get to, keeping blood inside, immobilisation and helping people see. That's all I really need.
 Dr.S at work 30 Jan 2015
In reply to Martin not maisie:

surely an AED, or at the very least the 'finger of fitzpatrick' should be mandatory?
 ianstevens 30 Jan 2015
In reply to Martin not maisie:

> And then run away. Apparently, clingfilm and a credit card is all you need....

Just what I was about to say - it's all I take. If I can't fix it with that and a little resourcefulness, I would be calling MR so what's the point in carrying other stuff?

I don't feel I'm being reliant on MR, more accepting that there are situations where I would call them. Having thought/discussed quite extensively, the above kit is enough to fix anything in situations where I wouldn't call them.
 BFG 30 Jan 2015
In reply to ianstevens:
This is good advice.

Personally: steri strips, self adhesive bandage, pads, sterile water, painkillers, face mask, fold away split thingy, plastic bag, survival bag, duct tape.

Basically the injuries you're going to see come in two categories: 1). ones that you can carry on with (so minimal kit needed) 2). ones that you need to call MR for. In that case you need stuff that allows you to slow down the injury / possibly aid in patient mobility. I'm generally in a pair or a three when in the mountain, especially in the former case I'm unlikely to be able to move the casualty safely. In that case, the most important thing you can carry (apart from a phone) is a way to keep the casualty warm / safe. MR will be carrying the big stuff.

Edit: oh, knife and disposable gloves too.
Post edited at 23:09
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> or at the very least the 'finger of fitzpatrick' should be mandatory?

I have at least 11 of the holy digital relics for sale: shove one in a sucking chest wound and watch the magic happen.

What I really want is a couple of the b*st*rd's tears, so I can cure world poverty.
 ianstevens 30 Jan 2015
In reply to Phoebus:

> This is good advice.

Cheers!

> Personally: survival bag,

Never considered that as a piece of first aid kit as such, more a piece of general "safety" kit - however I suppose your right that you'll most likely only get it out in extremis.

The credit card fills in well for the knife, although does perform less well on a hard cheese.
 PPP 30 Jan 2015
In reply to webbie88:

Whiskey and painkillers. Seriously, that's what you are most likely to need. I don't take painkillers, but had an awful day after 2 quite strenuous days and ended up with 9 pills that day (rotating between paracetamol and ibuprofen). My mate had more than that and whiskey at the second half of the day.

Blister plasters (if you plan to walk much), wound cleaning wipes, a wee bit of foot powder and plasters is what you will need mostly. I've got quite a lot of stuff in my first aid kit, even antihistamines. I usually go on my own (not while climbing, but hillwalking/scrambling), so I want to make sure I can take care of myself so I can get back to safety. On the other hand, I did not use most of the stuff for enough time that I had to replace some stuff what has never been used. I also think that if you are in a minor trouble, you are going to be okay for a day or two. If you are in a big trouble, you won't have enough kit/knowledge to treat yourself to the level and you are most likely to need to be rescued.
 Dr.S at work 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Martin not maisie:

> I have at least 11 of the holy digital relics for sale: shove one in a sucking chest wound and watch the magic happen.

are the toes effective also?

> What I really want is a couple of the b*st*rd's tears, so I can cure world poverty.

Hmmmm, if we took one Tear of Fitzpatrick, used it as the stock for a 30C solution - all disease could be ended!!!

Hows that for One Medicine?

 JayPee630 31 Jan 2015
In reply to webbie88:
I carry a small first aid/emergency kit:

A few assorted plasters.
Duct tape.
Petzl e-lite.
Small Silva compass.
Two rehydration salts packs.
Antiseptic wipes.
Tiny Swiss Army knife with tweezers.
Tick remover tool.
Lighter.
A few Aspirin, Ibruprofen, Paracetamol, water purification tablets.

All fits in a tiny waterproof Ortileb first aid pack.

And then an ultralight 2 person bothy bag with 2 heat pads and a SOLO bivy bag all stuffed in the bothy bag sac.

Only things I'd add if I could be bothered to carry them would be a SAM splint and a good trauma dressing.
Post edited at 00:14
 Billhook 31 Jan 2015
In reply to JayPee630:
So if you did come across someone with some serious tears/deep cuts caused by falling with ice axe crampons etc., you'll regret having a few assorted plasters but no real wound dressing?
Post edited at 07:30
 BStar 31 Jan 2015
In reply to webbie88:
I've got a small kit, it's about half the size of a standard bag of sugar. It has limited use of first aid but I've put the things in there that I may be able to deal with without needing MR, things like cuts, grazes, headaches, a gnat in the eye etc. fron the comfort of my bed this is what I think is in it;

Plasters a few shapes and sizes
Blister Plasters
Bandages x 2
Gauze pads x 2
Alcohol wipes
Tape
Scissors
Sun cream sachet - is the most replaced thing in there
Eye wash - can also be used to clean cuts
Burn gel sachet - more for camping than walking
Paracetamol
Ibuprofen
Water purification tablets
Foil blanket

Although it's not first aid, the suncream sachet has really come in handy on several occasions. I'm pretty fair skinned and can get caught out quite easily.
Post edited at 08:16
lnn 31 Jan 2015
Carrying a small kit of plasters/wound cleaning/zinc oxide tape/painkillers is (often referred to as an 'ouch pouch') is pretty sensible - things like blisters can be pretty debilitating and a headache can properly scupper your judgement descending late in the day but both are easy to treat if you have the above.

If it's more serious (by that I mean trauma/major medical) then yes that's what MR are there for but it's worth remembering how long it may take a team to reach you. In bad weather (so no helicopters) this could easily be 2-3hours, so plenty of time to bleed out from a large wound. Is your spare fleece and duct tape really going to cut it?- or would a military style large wound pad (vacuum packed, less than a tenner, a few grams) be a better plan? After 2 hours on sat on a hillside you'll probably wish you were wearing your spare fleece.

The other thing definitely worth considering as a few have pointed out is emergency shelter options - if you're calling MR you're in for a wait even with a helicopter, so hypothermia is almost always on the cards, especially for the casualty. Bothy bags are brilliant, as are blizzard bags, and both count as first aid for me.

In reply to webbie88:

I created a very small first aid kit a while ago in conjunction with a friend that is a paramedic and my climbing partner

It's a small zip lock bag containing: a few plaster, 2 compeed for blisters, a small truma dressing, a foil blanket, some aspirin,ibrofen,paracetamol,anti-histimine, 2 sachets of re hydration salts and a few plasters. The idea is you can stop the pain/stem any bleeding to walk off the hills anything more serious call MR. If there was major bleeding I'd use my shirt etc washing wounds use water bottle you can worry about infection control later it's unlikely that sterile water is needed. I work on the theroy the smaller it is the more useful because your more likely to take it
 OwenM 31 Jan 2015
In reply to webbie88:

I split my kit into two, stuff that gets used often - compeed, roll of tape, gauze, tick tweezers, ibuprofen, steri-strips, antiseptic wipes and some plasters.
Then there's stuff that never gets used - an army shell dressing, a smaller pad dressing, triangular bandage (can be used for many things not just slings), small roll bandage.
It all fits into a very small Pod sac dry bag about as big as two fists. I normally have a survival bag and fleece etc in my rucksack as well.
 spartacus 31 Jan 2015
In reply to OwenM:
I have enhanced first aid training curtesy of work, this includes military input to paramedic level. I've always carried two self contained army wound dressings in the top of my rucksack as a 'fix most things' option, the rational being;

1/ They are a maintenance free chuck in sack and forget option until needed. Sterile tough waterproof and self contained canvas type rip open packing.

2/ in climbing the nature of serious accident will include catastrophic bleeds, these need an immediate effective solution. Usually plugging and direct pressure and or tourniquet. (These need training to be effective and not make matters worse)

3/ My 25 years going to the hills I have delt with 2 climbing accidents were these have been the perfect solution prior to the arrival of professional medics. One chap on Tyfan fell off climb landed on face, serious cuts to face including large flap of cheek torn to reveal teeth and jaw. The second involved serious wrist injury following a fall which exposed and split major blood vessels.

I'm sorry if you climb for long enough you will see these things, when people fall on to rock it's not usually very pretty.
Post edited at 12:33
 Billhook 31 Jan 2015
In reply to webbie88:

As always there appears some confusion between 'personal medication and comfort' stuff and first aid stuff.

Pain killers, foil blankets, corn plasters and the like are personal medication surely?
 OwenM 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Dave Perry:

Is there any difference? I think not.
 Sharp 31 Jan 2015
In reply to webbie88:
It's quite a personal thing, ukc brings out the two extremes of pack everything and pack nothing, most people will choose something sensible in between.

Personally I take a fair bit more than the duct tape and cling film brigade, but it still only weighs about 200-300g and is just a bit bigger than a packet of supernoodles in two ziplock freezer bags.I don't think it's excessive for the role that it plays, you can improvise almost everything but if a piece of falling ice takes your eye out do you want somones sweaty buff duct taped to your head or do you want a 40 gram sterile ambulance dressing? Some people carry a flask of tea up the Ben, a dressing weighs f*ck all in comparrison. The MR could take all night to find and get to you, real life emergencies are stressful enough so i'm happy to cart the extra weight about to make things easier when the shit hits the fan.

Pencil and paper (w/proof) are always forgotton but really important, you might want to take a grid reference, might have to walk to get a signal or even off the hill - what was his name? Where were they? When did it happen? Unless that sort of thing is your job and you train regularly your head will be in a fuzz so don't expect to be functioning to the level where you'll be able to keep that sort of thing in your head. Same with 1st aid reminder cards, is that really too much weight to carry? Someone might come accross you whose not done a FA course, had no first aid kit apart from the one in your bag - the wee cards are worth carrying imo - again, weight? F*ck all, so why not?

Whatever FA kit you take make it your own, if you're going to take a dressing then buy two and unpack one to see what it's like - some are seriously shit as I've found out at the worst possible time. Same with micro pore tape - try sticking some on your leg when you get out of the shower...useless, take hypafix or duct tape instead. As others have said MR aren't always going to be able to respond quickly, if your out all night can you keep a bleeding casualty warm and alive? Probably not but taking a pre-packed military style dressing in your sack in winter will make things a bit more comfier at least and might just raise your odds a bit. Like I said, what you take's a personal choice but in winter when you're out playing with spikey things and help is hours away my opinion is that duct tape and hope don't quite cut it.
Post edited at 16:12
 Billhook 31 Jan 2015
In reply to OwenM:
Most of the first aid courses I've done seem to think so.

For example you are normally not expected to provided neurofen or other painkillers because they may well make diagnosis of other injuries more difficult.

And what first aid can you carry out with a little plaster on a winter mountain perhaps?
Post edited at 18:56
 Si Withington 31 Jan 2015
In reply to webbie88:

Personally I think that those that don't take some basic and useful kit are at best selfish. I'd like to think that the climbing community would be there to help keep me alive until the adults arrive if I am unfortunate enough to need it. I know I'd take on that role if needed.

FWIW, when out personal climbing, I take some thing along the lines of:

2 paracetamol
2 ibuprofen
2 aspirin
couple of large plasters
couple of compeeds
a tube of glucogel
a triangular bandage
an ambulance dressing
a small crepe bandage
a large melolin dressing
a 'cas card' - basically a waterproof form that we use in MR to record details/key trends
a lightweight CPR 're-breathe' mask
paid of non-latex gloves
a sharpie
a small role of micropore

Seems a lot? Not really. Can make a difference to pain, can support an injured limb, can deal with a bleed, can help with a heart attack, can help an exhausted casualty.

Fits in the smallest of Exped dry bags. Weighs little.

No brainer.

We carry similar in MR as a 'personal' kit, but add a SAM splint and some bigger dressings/bandages.

TTFN

 Dave the Rave 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Si Withington:

> Personally I think that those that don't take some basic and useful kit are at best selfish. I'd like to think that the climbing community would be there to help keep me alive until the adults arrive if I am unfortunate enough to need it.

Well said, and if you are ever in need of the kit, someone may find it and use it for your benefit.
 annak 31 Jan 2015
I've been thinking about this lately, and I do always come down to the question, what do I need to take so I can get myself down off the hill? If whatever has happened to me is minor enough that plasters and painkillers will fix it, then that can wait.

I already have a rope knife with me, and slings that could be tourniquets, or slings(!). I think I will get myself one of those military wound dressings, I could sacrifice some clothes to mop up blood but getting some sustained pressure on a wound is a hard thing to improvise, especially if you then have to move with it on. Duct tape also seems useful. And not really first aid but a spare headtorch. Nothing else seems that vital to me.

The stupid thing is that I would be more willing to carry a large first aid kit on a day with a short walk-in, to, say, Stanage, which is where I probably need it least. Big days in isolated conditions are clearly when a decent first aid kit would be more useful, but given how much I struggle under my rucksack as it is, I am loathe to add any more weight to it.
Removed User 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

is there a support group for 'fingered by fitzpatrick'?
 JayPee630 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Dave Perry:

Yes, the same way I might regret not carrying a tourniqet, but I've been going about in the hills and day-to-day for 40 years and not needed one, so have just decided that it's not worth it to carry. Others might disagree and carry one or both. Anyway, we carry clothes, they can do for a bit.
 Dr.S at work 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Removed User:

No need for support - they are all bionic!
 Dave B 31 Jan 2015
In reply to annak:

A sling won't generally make an effective tourniquet, especially the thinner spectra ones. If you want and know how to use a tourniquet, have one with you and use that. They are pretty cheap and don't go out of date!
 Si Withington 31 Jan 2015
In reply to webbie88:

In addition to the above, another 15g of weight that I've recently started carrying is a haemostatic agent branded 'Celox'. Not used it in anger yet but heard good things from colleagues & believe it's on its way to our MR medisacs too.

http://www.celoxmedical.com/eur/eurproducts/productsceloxgranules/

For me the 'First Aid Kit' is a green 1 litre drybag with a white cross on it which I fill with useful stuff and chuck in the rucksack. It is supposed to cover summer hillwalking and safe-ish bouldering/sport climbing so a sprain or cuts and bruises coming off a boulder or getting a bit cold/knackered/blistered/hay fever/running out of water with a fair distance still to walk have all happened and could easily happen again. So I carry Compeed, plasters, steri-strips, some larger bandages, savlon, finger tape, glucose sweets, allergy medicine, nurofen, immodium, a swiss army knife, tick tool, spare compass, spare small headtorch, fire starter, water purification tablets, spare shoelace, duct tape, foil blanket. Outside of the first aid kit I'll have an extra external battery for the phone and a waterproof case so the GPS function can be used for a long time and in the wet.

Whoever isn't carrying the first aid kit carries a two person bothy bag: this system gets you more for the same weight as two people each carrying their own small first aid kit and a survival bag.
Post edited at 00:39
m0unt41n 01 Feb 2015
In reply to webbie88:

There are little problems and big problems. Little problems you sort out with whatever you or anyone else has. Big problems you are unlikely to have the training or equipment for so you just do your best. So there is no point in worrying whether you have a suitable First Aid kit. Our personal kit (Kit 1) in MR is pretty basic and simple.

But the biggest problem for a lot of the year in UK is Hypothermia. You and anyone with you will deteriorate really fast without protection so my priorities whether by myself, with a group or on a callout is:

2. Shelter
3. Blizzard bag or blanket
4. Gloves, scissors, torch, CasCare card
5. Anything else

Oh and most important of all

1. Ingenuity
 climber david 01 Feb 2015
In reply to webbie88:

I would say it depends how 'fast and light' you want to go

If your going ueli steck fast and light then I would say a couple of bits and bobs to deal with major issues (Im thinking major bleed/fracture/cardiac arrest). In that situation I would carry a trauma fix (a military type pressure dressing), a tourniquet, duct tape, and a CPR faceshield. Sometimes I would carry a couple of OP airways (weigh next to nothing and take up hardly any space)

if I'm going for something a bit more comfort orientated then I would also carry plasters, painkillers, crepe bandage, some basic would cleaning stuff, tweezers, shears, a few tapes and other wee bits and bobs to make life easier. I would take this if I was going out with a group or to somewhere a bit further afield and I dont need to go super light

Just my tuppence worth

David
 StuDoig 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Si Withington:

That looks pretty close to clotting granules that our medics offshore have - and virtually everyone I've met that's used them outside has little good to say about them. Our current medic (ex army medic with a lot of field trauma experience) really hates the stuff.

I've not used it myself, but their feedback was that they have big issues with it out doors as application in any kind of wind is very difficult, and if the granules get airborn and into someones eyes (imagine it in the confines of a bothy bag with a few of you round the cas) they react as if they've just been put into a wound and you've got a second (or third / fourth etc) cas to deal with who will probably now need hospital treatment.

Another reason they gave was that for arterial / catastrophic bleeds, the majority of it gets washed out very quickly and so has little effect. The promotion videos they showed us from the US of it being trialled on pigs all waited till the flow had dropped hugely before application - not something they were keen on doing with a real cas.

The ones they had been issued (not sure if these are the same) also resulted in bad chemical burns around the application site. Not your top priority for a major bleed, but a definite complication for later.

They all seemed pretty keen on tourniquets and trauma dressings for managing major bleeds instead, though they did mention dressings with similar clotting agents in them that they thought might work a lot better than the granules.

This was a couple of years ago now that we were talking about it though, so maybe this stuff is better / more refined. The fact that it's still granules would worry me though, unless it's been altered to avoid damaging peoples eyes.

Anyway, not something that most of us have much opportunity to test thankfully!

Cheers!

Stu
 LastBoyScout 02 Feb 2015
In reply to webbie88:

I generally carry the stock LifeSystems pocket kit, packed out with more plasters, Ibuprofen, gloves, micropore tape and resussi face shield. Also carry a triangular bandage and foil survival bag. That does me for mountain biking and hill walking.

I have a bigger kit in a waterproof case for group use that I keep in the car.

Elastoplast finger strips are fantastic

And more years than I can remember of various First Aid courses.
 JayPee630 02 Feb 2015
In reply to StuDoig:

The granules have totally fallen out of use pretty much, and CELOX gauze with the hemostatic component impregnated in the gauze it the gold standard.
 StuDoig 02 Feb 2015
In reply to JayPee630:

Cheers for the update, - the granules sounded terrible for outdoors use, the impregnated gauze sounds like a much better idea!

Cheers!

Stu

 Si Withington 02 Feb 2015
In reply to StuDoig:

Yeah, agree, the gauze does sound like a much better idea. Not sure whether its the gauze or the granules that we're going to get but I'd imagine it's the latter. Cheers for the feedback.
 The Lemming 02 Feb 2015
In reply to webbie88:

Just like all the other Frist Aid threads, this one has/is going OTT.

My First Aid Kit has simple stuff like:

Bog roll
plasters
water purifyers
paracetamol
ibrufen
anti-poo tabs
anti-sick tabs
triangle bandage
tape
swiss knife
whistle
rubber gloves
other such small stuff like safety pins.

Basically, my First Aid Kit is designed around me, and my everyday ailments and nobody else. This is not being selfish in any shape form or fashion.

If things go tits up, what can I realistically do?
If there is red stuff, stem it. If something is squishy or mis shapen, imobalise it as best as possible. The injured person will let you know if this is not an option as they will make their views well known.

Once help has been summoned, I'd sit tight with the person and reasure them as best I could till the grown ups arrived. I'd use common sense too. If they had a broken finger then we'd walk out but if the were immobile then I'd never deram of going Rambo and put the on my back, its just too weak and frail to cope with a 14 stone weight put on it.

I'm a big advocate of K.I.S.S.

Keep it simple, Keep it stupid.

Thankfully this topic hasn't morphed into strokes or cardiac arrests. If I was on top of Helvellyn and my mate had a cardiac arrest, I would start CPR for as long as my little arms would hold out knowing full well that, realistically, it was game-over.

 climbwhenready 02 Feb 2015
In reply to The Lemming:

Yeah, that looks very similar to what I take. One addition I take is eye wash, dirt/grit in the eye is the sort of thing that you could deal with quite quickly if you have some clean water or immobilise you if you haven't.
 SteveD 02 Feb 2015
In reply to StuDoig:

Pretty sure that the clotting agent that caused burns is another product, the selling point of celox is that it does not have an exothermic reaction. The demo I saw on a pig the blood was in full flow, a dressing was held close to the wound, celox poured in then the dressing applied with pressure.

Interestingly my last FA instructor, also an army medic with field experience thought that Celox was a lifesaver.

I carry a small FA kit with the usual bits and bobs in and lots of plasters and Celox, I am on anti-thrombotics so the smallest nick ends up with blood all over the crag. My crag bag also has a SAM splint in it on the basis that I mostly sea cliff climb and with a 9m+ tide range I might have to move a casualty before my colleagues on the Cliff Rescue team get to me.

SteveD
 d508934 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Si Withington:

any idea where you can get gauze with the CELOX in it from? hadn't heard of it at all before and probably not available in Boots. will enquire on their website but maybe there's a better shop/online place.

cheers
 andrewmc 02 Feb 2015
In reply to webbie88:

Just because I like overkill...

I have the Lifesystems 'mountain' first aid kit plus a few extra bits - permanent marker, tick remover, few extra old FA kit bandages, extra triangular bandage, some extra drugs (aspirin/decongestant/hayfever/anti-Diahorrea) plus extra blister pads and plasters. I also carry a 4-person survival bag, two SAM splints and a survival blanket.
 due 02 Feb 2015
In reply to JayPee630:

I personally wouldn't choose to buy Celox. The stuff goes out of date and has a fairly limited scope for use (groins and armpits usually). Normal Z-pack / compressed gauze is cheap as anything and still has a good chance of working.

Israeli bandages are great. Hopefully you'll only end up using it to sling someone's arm or splint legs together, but it's still there if you did encounter a bleed. Unlike the old field dressings that came in the canvas type packaging they are designed to apply quite a lot of pressure rather than simply absorbing blood. Have a play first before you have to use one in anger though.

SAM splints are also good for pretty minimal weight. You can take your rucksack frame out and stick a couple in its place quite easily.

Whatever you decide to carry, start with the fundamentals and take something to write on and with (ideally waterproof), maybe with some simple 'where when who what' type prompts ready to fill in.
 JayPee630 03 Feb 2015
In reply to due:

Yes, I don't carry it and personally think it's overkill for a mountain first aid kit, was just pointing out where someone could get some.

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