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Oh yes you can, according to Go Outdoors assistant yesterday.
This 'view' was given to another customer. I know yoy can technically ab on 5 mill, but come on! If the punter does try it, hope he puts his speedy, blurry descent on youtube.
I've just sent yhem an email with my view, and excat time so they can address. No doubt they have good insurance/small print to cover their backs.
Post edited at 09:04
In reply to mick taylor:
If the rope is good, then breaking strain would be less of an issue than friction I would have thought. I don't suppose your average prussic would hold on 5mm, so how would the figure-of-eight or belay device perform?
While it's unlikely that anyone would ever need to do this or even have a long enough length of 5mm outdoors, they might well be out with an 8mm walking/ guide rope. It's as well to know the theoretical limits in case you ever get in a jam of some kind and suddenly find yourself asking 'could I get out of here this way'..? I've met serious, responsible climbers who have done all sorts of things to rescue people who got into something they could not get themselves out of.
If the rope is good, then breaking strain would be less of an issue than friction I would have thought. I don't suppose your average prussic would hold on 5mm, so how would the figure-of-eight or belay device perform?
While it's unlikely that anyone would ever need to do this or even have a long enough length of 5mm outdoors, they might well be out with an 8mm walking/ guide rope. It's as well to know the theoretical limits in case you ever get in a jam of some kind and suddenly find yourself asking 'could I get out of here this way'..? I've met serious, responsible climbers who have done all sorts of things to rescue people who got into something they could not get themselves out of.
In reply to mick taylor:
Sure he wasn't talking about ab tat?
Sure he wasn't talking about ab tat?
In reply to mick taylor:
If he used the classic method it would't be particularly speedy. And some people don't feel pain as badly as others.....
If he used the classic method it would't be particularly speedy. And some people don't feel pain as badly as others.....
In reply to Andy Morley:
Yes, friction is the issue.
There are situations when it may make sense to have say 100 metres of super thin ab rope - abbing off a long ice route you've soloed for example. You can also climb on a single, but carry a mega skinny ab rope so you can do multi raps back down (again, multi pitch ice climbing being a good example). Doubt anyone with these scenarios in mind would be discussing with a go outdoors assistant. The customer actually got his mobile out to show a picture of an ice climb he'd done (top roped i believe) at the weekend in N Wales.
Yes, friction is the issue.
There are situations when it may make sense to have say 100 metres of super thin ab rope - abbing off a long ice route you've soloed for example. You can also climb on a single, but carry a mega skinny ab rope so you can do multi raps back down (again, multi pitch ice climbing being a good example). Doubt anyone with these scenarios in mind would be discussing with a go outdoors assistant. The customer actually got his mobile out to show a picture of an ice climb he'd done (top roped i believe) at the weekend in N Wales.
In reply to mick taylor:
I can imagine situations when out hill-walking or scrambling where you might not want to carry a heavy rope but where a lighter 5mm line could be useful. Particularly if one of your companions was lacking in confidence in descending a relatively easy slope and where a stumble or fall might send them skidding down into more dangerous territory.
I can imagine situations when out hill-walking or scrambling where you might not want to carry a heavy rope but where a lighter 5mm line could be useful. Particularly if one of your companions was lacking in confidence in descending a relatively easy slope and where a stumble or fall might send them skidding down into more dangerous territory.
In reply to Al Evans:
Personally, I just carry a knife.
> Tom Proctor could break 5mm perlon with his bare hands,
Personally, I just carry a knife.
1
In reply to Removed User:
6mm laid rope is commonly used for running rigging in sailing dinghies. 5 mm braided rope sold by GO is probably stronger.
> Can you really describe 5mm as rope? It's more like 'thick string'.
6mm laid rope is commonly used for running rigging in sailing dinghies. 5 mm braided rope sold by GO is probably stronger.
In reply to mick taylor:
Well Mammut seem to think that 6mm is fine: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6992
Well Mammut seem to think that 6mm is fine: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6992
In reply to elliptic:
Just checked - the mammut 5 mill on Go's website is sold as 'climbing accessory cord' (prusiks etc)...........another reason why the assistant should keep his 'view' to himself.
Just checked - the mammut 5 mill on Go's website is sold as 'climbing accessory cord' (prusiks etc)...........another reason why the assistant should keep his 'view' to himself.
In reply to mick taylor:
5mm aramid rope might be actually okay, but it would be very non-dynamic! Something like this: http://www.gearexpress.com/edelweiss-5-5mm-aramid-cord.html
Or dyneema:
http://www.outside.co.uk/shop/Dyneema+Cord+5.5mm - 20g/m!
I don't have much experience on using dyneema/aramid ropes or cords, but it looked like aramid is a little bit better friction wise. Dyneema is so slick! However, I doubt that GO Outdoors shop assistant meant aramid/dyneema cord.
On the other hand, neither of solutions are appropriate for a person who asks for an advice at GO Outdoors.
5mm aramid rope might be actually okay, but it would be very non-dynamic! Something like this: http://www.gearexpress.com/edelweiss-5-5mm-aramid-cord.html
Or dyneema:
http://www.outside.co.uk/shop/Dyneema+Cord+5.5mm - 20g/m!
I don't have much experience on using dyneema/aramid ropes or cords, but it looked like aramid is a little bit better friction wise. Dyneema is so slick! However, I doubt that GO Outdoors shop assistant meant aramid/dyneema cord.
On the other hand, neither of solutions are appropriate for a person who asks for an advice at GO Outdoors.
In reply to mick taylor:
I've no doubt 5mm cord/rope can hold your static body weight but as others have said it's a matter of friction, if you had some kind of hypothetical super thin, super high friction belay plate then maybe it would work but if the guy buying it was a beginner who didn't know what he was doing and using a normal belay plate / fig-8 then he's going to hit the ground pretty hard with a 5mm groove burnt into his hand.
I've no doubt 5mm cord/rope can hold your static body weight but as others have said it's a matter of friction, if you had some kind of hypothetical super thin, super high friction belay plate then maybe it would work but if the guy buying it was a beginner who didn't know what he was doing and using a normal belay plate / fig-8 then he's going to hit the ground pretty hard with a 5mm groove burnt into his hand.
In reply to mick taylor:
If I were in your place, I would try not to be too vindictive towards the shop-assistant in person. If you enable Go Outdoors to identify the individual, he or she will probably be scapedgoated, given a written warning and the case will be closed. If you report what happened without identifying who it was, if they decide to respond in a responsible way, it will force them to look at their wider staff training and team-briefing practices, which are more likely to be the things that are at fault here. After all, the person you overheard was probably only repeating things they themselves had heard from more experienced colleagues.
If I were in your place, I would try not to be too vindictive towards the shop-assistant in person. If you enable Go Outdoors to identify the individual, he or she will probably be scapedgoated, given a written warning and the case will be closed. If you report what happened without identifying who it was, if they decide to respond in a responsible way, it will force them to look at their wider staff training and team-briefing practices, which are more likely to be the things that are at fault here. After all, the person you overheard was probably only repeating things they themselves had heard from more experienced colleagues.
7
In reply to mick taylor:
Did you bother 'correcting' the mistake? Did you bring the issue to the attention of a manager? A quiet word may have been enough and probably welcomed.
Did you bother 'correcting' the mistake? Did you bring the issue to the attention of a manager? A quiet word may have been enough and probably welcomed.
1
In reply to mick taylor:
abseil with or abseil off? if the former, I'd be concerned about friction (or lack thereof), if the latter, yes it's fine to ab off but at risk of stating the obvious axiom, 6mm is stronger.
abseil with or abseil off? if the former, I'd be concerned about friction (or lack thereof), if the latter, yes it's fine to ab off but at risk of stating the obvious axiom, 6mm is stronger.
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
Or a karabina brake or a friction hitch on the dead rope or loads of other simple solutions to increasing friction without resorting to special kit.
jk
> if you had some kind of hypothetical super thin, super high friction belay plate then maybe it would work...
Or a karabina brake or a friction hitch on the dead rope or loads of other simple solutions to increasing friction without resorting to special kit.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
Or maybe a good time to break out a Super Munter: http://www.animatedknots.com/muntersuper
> Or a karabina brake or a friction hitch on the dead rope or loads of other simple solutions to increasing friction without resorting to special kit.
> jk
Or maybe a good time to break out a Super Munter: http://www.animatedknots.com/muntersuper
2
In reply to jkarran:
It isn't the friction that would worry me, you could just add some more wraps or something, it's the stretching over an edge that would het me. It wouldn't have to be very sharp to wear through a 5mm.
It isn't the friction that would worry me, you could just add some more wraps or something, it's the stretching over an edge that would het me. It wouldn't have to be very sharp to wear through a 5mm.
2
In reply to mick taylor:
Mammut sell a special mini fig8 to address the friction issue.
Will McLewin in 'Monte Viso' lists 36m of 6mm as part of his soloing kit in the Alps, for traditional abs.
Mammut sell a special mini fig8 to address the friction issue.
Will McLewin in 'Monte Viso' lists 36m of 6mm as part of his soloing kit in the Alps, for traditional abs.
In reply to mick taylor:
5 mill??!
My thought number 1 - is this survival of the fittest in action?
My thought number 2 - yes, you can abseil on 5 mill, but will you arrive at the bottom slower than 120 MPH?
Edit, glad to hear you sent them an email, Mick.
5 mill??!
My thought number 1 - is this survival of the fittest in action?
My thought number 2 - yes, you can abseil on 5 mill, but will you arrive at the bottom slower than 120 MPH?
Edit, glad to hear you sent them an email, Mick.
Post edited at 14:18
In reply to mick taylor:
So what do you want? The customer asked a question and the assistant answered it correctly. It´s not his job to assess the skills of a customer and give his view on their abilities, that´s for climbing instructors not shop staff.
> Yep - exactly the point ive just made.
So what do you want? The customer asked a question and the assistant answered it correctly. It´s not his job to assess the skills of a customer and give his view on their abilities, that´s for climbing instructors not shop staff.
3
In reply to jimtitt:
Tut! You will insist on talking sense when you could be saying we are all going to die.
Tut! You will insist on talking sense when you could be saying we are all going to die.
In reply to jimtitt:
If the assistant says it can be used to abseil on, doesn't that mean it is being sold as PPE? I haven't the time to look into it right now, but I suspect the retailer is contravening the Personal Protective Equipment Directive (or something) if it hasn't been tested and certified by the manufacturer for that use.
If the assistant says it can be used to abseil on, doesn't that mean it is being sold as PPE? I haven't the time to look into it right now, but I suspect the retailer is contravening the Personal Protective Equipment Directive (or something) if it hasn't been tested and certified by the manufacturer for that use.
In reply to Offwidth:
Not me, I don´t believe a word ANY shop assistant says. Especially the under-age youths one encounters in climbing shops.
> Tut! You will insist on talking sense when you could be saying we are all going to die.
Not me, I don´t believe a word ANY shop assistant says. Especially the under-age youths one encounters in climbing shops.
In reply to SenzuBean:
Thanks, I like days where I learn something new and useful. It doesn't get any lighter or simpler than that!
jk
> Or maybe a good time to break out a Super Munter: http://www.animatedknots.com/muntersuper
Thanks, I like days where I learn something new and useful. It doesn't get any lighter or simpler than that!
jk
In reply to mick taylor:
Interestingly 5mm cord is the smallest not labelled as 'not suitable for climbing' on Needle Sports, so maybe the assistant has a detailed knowledge of the legal status of cord and was giving his legal opinion...
I guess with enough friction and careful enough ropework you could do it... but it seems a bizarre thing to want to do. Maybe he's planning on taking fast and light alpinism to a new level? He can use sharpened nutkeys as axes
Interestingly 5mm cord is the smallest not labelled as 'not suitable for climbing' on Needle Sports, so maybe the assistant has a detailed knowledge of the legal status of cord and was giving his legal opinion...
I guess with enough friction and careful enough ropework you could do it... but it seems a bizarre thing to want to do. Maybe he's planning on taking fast and light alpinism to a new level? He can use sharpened nutkeys as axes
In reply to mick taylor:
Unlikely, but perhaps that were referring to using the 5mm cord as a pull line on a carabiner/single rope abseil arrangement? In which case, 5mm is a bit of an overkill. But technically, yes, it can be used on an abseil arrangement allowing a full rope-length abseil.
Unlikely, but perhaps that were referring to using the 5mm cord as a pull line on a carabiner/single rope abseil arrangement? In which case, 5mm is a bit of an overkill. But technically, yes, it can be used on an abseil arrangement allowing a full rope-length abseil.
Post edited at 15:44
In reply to David Martin:
Would be grateful if you could expand what you mean here David?
I tried googling the technique you refer to but found nothing that seemed relevant
> Unlikely, but perhaps that were referring to using the 5mm cord as a pull line on a carabiner/single rope abseil arrangement?
Would be grateful if you could expand what you mean here David?
I tried googling the technique you refer to but found nothing that seemed relevant
In reply to Andy Morley:
We have been here before recently ( within a mill )
/ 6-7mm cord, abbing on it?
We have been here before recently ( within a mill )
/ 6-7mm cord, abbing on it?
In reply to Andy Morley:
This is what I said then
Abbed off 6mm+9mm, 7mm+8.5mm, 5mm+5mm .
Be careful with differential rope slippage, slashing thin ropes and rope stretch.
Ideally practice with a top rope first.
Getting the ideal amount of friction takes practice.
If possible I put both ropes thro the same hole in the plate and if the rope is very thin an additional friction hitch after or before the plate.
On a 20m free ab on the double 5mm, an in line Italian hitch and ATC worked very well, but otherwise felt on the limit of acceptability for safety, not for the faint hearted. I still prefer double 10mm.
This is what I said then
Abbed off 6mm+9mm, 7mm+8.5mm, 5mm+5mm .
Be careful with differential rope slippage, slashing thin ropes and rope stretch.
Ideally practice with a top rope first.
Getting the ideal amount of friction takes practice.
If possible I put both ropes thro the same hole in the plate and if the rope is very thin an additional friction hitch after or before the plate.
On a 20m free ab on the double 5mm, an in line Italian hitch and ATC worked very well, but otherwise felt on the limit of acceptability for safety, not for the faint hearted. I still prefer double 10mm.
Post edited at 17:41
2
In reply to Rick Graham:
OK, so deviating from the OP slightly, this use of a stopper-knot and back-up carabiner is only needed when abseiling down two ropes of different thicknesses, if I've understood correctly?
You don't need any of that additional complication when abseiling down two conventional 8/9mm climbing ropes - all you need is to tie them together with the far-famed Alpine Death Knot. So the only remaining question is - in the unlikely (but not impossible) situation where someone might abseil down identical twin 5mm ropes as Rick Graham has done, can you dispense with the extra faf of a stopper and karabiner and just use the Alpine Death Knot, or with ropes that thin, would the ADK slip more than the customary 1.5 meter tail would cater for?
OK, so deviating from the OP slightly, this use of a stopper-knot and back-up carabiner is only needed when abseiling down two ropes of different thicknesses, if I've understood correctly?
You don't need any of that additional complication when abseiling down two conventional 8/9mm climbing ropes - all you need is to tie them together with the far-famed Alpine Death Knot. So the only remaining question is - in the unlikely (but not impossible) situation where someone might abseil down identical twin 5mm ropes as Rick Graham has done, can you dispense with the extra faf of a stopper and karabiner and just use the Alpine Death Knot, or with ropes that thin, would the ADK slip more than the customary 1.5 meter tail would cater for?
1
In reply to Andy Morley:
Lots of things can ( and unfortunately do ) go very very badly wrong with abseils.
If it is not in an instruction book or you have been shown it by a guide or instructor, don't do it.
If you experiment , it is your own risk.
My personal view is the more back up's in the system the better. Talk of extra " faf" worries me.
Lots of things can ( and unfortunately do ) go very very badly wrong with abseils.
If it is not in an instruction book or you have been shown it by a guide or instructor, don't do it.
If you experiment , it is your own risk.
My personal view is the more back up's in the system the better. Talk of extra " faf" worries me.
2
In reply to Rick Graham:
I have never read an instruction book or been shown how to by an instructor.
So far I'm still alive.
What happened to being shown things by a mate?
I have never read an instruction book or been shown how to by an instructor.
So far I'm still alive.
What happened to being shown things by a mate?
2
In reply to jkarran:
i think the animated knots version isnt ideal the brake rope is best on the back bar to avoid gate rubbing
i think the animated knots version isnt ideal the brake rope is best on the back bar to avoid gate rubbing
In reply to simondgee:
Are you seriously suggesting that the only way to learn by paying an instructor?
It's a wonder that the bottom of the crags aren't littered with dead bodies!
Are you seriously suggesting that the only way to learn by paying an instructor?
It's a wonder that the bottom of the crags aren't littered with dead bodies!
In reply to Rick Graham:
Nothing in life is completely bullet-proof and there comes a point in any situation where you hit, not just the law of diminishing returns, but the point where adding extra layers of complication obscures the issue and makes accidents more likely
> My personal view is the more back up's in the system the better. Talk of extra " faf" worries me.
Nothing in life is completely bullet-proof and there comes a point in any situation where you hit, not just the law of diminishing returns, but the point where adding extra layers of complication obscures the issue and makes accidents more likely
Post edited at 08:02
In reply to simondgee:
Indeed that's the case. For Italian hitches I carry these guys: http://www.grivelgb.co.uk/products/carabiners/mega-twingate/ and have found them perfect for the job - don't need to worry about gate rubbing.
> i think the animated knots version isnt ideal the brake rope is best on the back bar to avoid gate rubbing
Indeed that's the case. For Italian hitches I carry these guys: http://www.grivelgb.co.uk/products/carabiners/mega-twingate/ and have found them perfect for the job - don't need to worry about gate rubbing.
In reply to Oceanrower:
If you read my post carefully, that was not my point.
As it happens I am self taught, but an avid reader of climbing knowledge and discussing techniques with mates.
I dare not count the number of people who I have climbed with over the last 47 years who have been killed in climbing accidents, fortunately for me, not when climbing with me. Having said that I still have cold sweats thinking about some of my very very near misses.
My post was actually directed at not having a death on my conscience for misleading technical experimentation suggestions.
> Are you seriously suggesting that the only way to learn by paying an instructor?
> It's a wonder that the bottom of the crags aren't littered with dead bodies!
If you read my post carefully, that was not my point.
As it happens I am self taught, but an avid reader of climbing knowledge and discussing techniques with mates.
I dare not count the number of people who I have climbed with over the last 47 years who have been killed in climbing accidents, fortunately for me, not when climbing with me. Having said that I still have cold sweats thinking about some of my very very near misses.
My post was actually directed at not having a death on my conscience for misleading technical experimentation suggestions.
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