UKH

The post on winter ML tips is really interesting as I am thinking of doing my assessment in 2016.

I don't want to hijack this post, as it's bound to be useful, so I have started this one to ask whether anyone has got any good timing tips for winter, as this is an area I really struggle with. My pacing is okay, but my timing isn't.

Thanks

In reply to iamaclimber:

Probably the best way is to wear a watch and be able to read the numbers on it.

In reply to SenzuBean:


Well, that's helpful coming from someone who is... an aspiring mountaineer, looking to get into some proper trad climbing, winter skills, alpine climbing and to do it with a mind to learning it properly so one day I can guide.

In reply to iamaclimber:
But seriously I think that's really the only way. Break the route up into stages (between landmarks, or terrain changes) beforehand, and calculate how long it should take for each stage (Naismiths for sections that are less than scrambling grade 2 or 3, not sure what you'd use for harder terrain - maybe guidebook time) . When in the field, make sure to time each leg - and after the first few, you will get a "factor" of how long the leg took compared to how long you estimated (maybe it will be 50% more, so just add 50% to all future estimates).
By breaking it up into clear legs beforehand, you are more likely to realize "oh, the leg ends here, how long was it", as opposed to walking a further unspecified distance and time and then thinking "well I better check how long I've just walked", and then having to try and deduce where you are exactly and what Naismith's is to this random point.

I would prefer the use of an altimeter in whiteout conditions over timing (for example if you know the bearing you're on but not how far along you far) - as they're much more accurate, and require less brainpower (don't need to remember numbers, or remember to stop/start the watch or subtract times).

In reply to Tony the Blade:

Was just ribbing mate!

In reply to SenzuBean:


Oh god, now I feel a right plonker! haha

Apologies mate.

ps great follow up answer

In reply to iamaclimber:

I strap my suunto to my rucksack shoulder strap. It has massive numbers and is a good tool as it is also an ABC watch.

In reply to iamaclimber:

It's a long time since I did my winter ML assessment, and I don't do as much winter hill-walking now, but my own experience is that timing legs is always going to be less accurate in winter conditions - I tend to move over to pacing. I'm much better at adjusting my pacing for constant changes in underfoot conditions than adjusting timing, particularly as timing is something I tend to calculate at the start of the leg, when I don't know what the underfoot conditions will be, whereas pacing I can adjust on the hoof just by adjusting the number of paces I count per each hundred metres.

Of course, if you're not doing winter ML, and you've got reasonable visibility and good map reading skills, it's often OK, and a lot more sociable, to manage without either (though I tend to get out my watch or start counting rather sooner than some of my other walking friends).

Martin

In reply to Tony the Blade:




No worries man - it was a good call to call me out if I left only a reply like that.

In reply to iamaclimber:

Timing is so vital as a nav tool in winter because pacing a 1.5km leg is a pain and winter paces are difficult get consistent as snow conditions will vary every few meters.

Timing is just a matter of practice and maths. Practice so you know what a 2/3/4km/hr pace feels like. Maths to know that 800m at ?k/hr is....X
Have your own crib sheet laminated and stuck on one side of your map case. Doing maths is not everyone's cup of tea, doing maths whilst grappling with a Scottish hoolie on the plateau and keeping your group looked after and walking on a dead perfect bearing is positively heroic.

Rob

In reply to iamaclimber:

Just get out and practice. In the run up to my WML assessment, I was on the hill every day for 2 months, so that gave me plenty of time to practice pacing and timing. Instead of going out for a particular summit, try just heading to Cairngorm plateau or similar, and spend time nav'ing. Pacing, timing, walking accurately on bearings. There's no secret to it, just loads of hill time. Watch on shoulder strap on the rucksack helps, I just have a 2 quid one from ebay that works grand.

In reply to iamaclimber:

In really gnarly conditions I count every pace. It's hard work. Long legs are tricky for this, so I get really super sensitive about the feel of the contour lines and break each leg up in to smaller sections- the distinctions on the Cairngorm plateau can be pretty damn subtle. I use timing too obviously (watch strapped on to my rucksack shoulder strap), but in bad weather/deep snow it can be way off and hard to account for. Over the course of a day I'll get a feel for how the conditions are affecting my speed over the ground and timing.

Basically in winter you have just got to be a hell of a lot more observant!

In reply to SenzuBean:

Worth bearing in mind when using an altimeter that its going to be susceptible to big changes in pressure, for example during very bad weather which may or may not be present during white out conditions. I guess that depends if its just general cloud cover you're in or if you're actually caught in a storm.

In reply to neilwiltshire:

I asked my assessors about altimeters- the verdict was that its fine for folk to use them as an aid to navigation, but that they will soon notice if people are over-relying on them, because they will be consistently wrong!

In reply to iamaclimber:

Thanks for all the tips.

I live in the south, a long way from the snow. How much use do you think going out and practising 1:50 nav is in non-winter conditions?

In reply to iamaclimber:

Practicing nav is always useful!

In reply to iamaclimber:
Just a comment on watches for timing - I found I gradually shifted from all singing all dancing Suunto, to a cheap Casio, to a basic digital watch from Decathlon that had a meaty display and didn't do much other than tell the time and have a stopwatch for elapsed times, with 3 big buttons. As others have said, watch goes on your rucksack strap, as it's easier to access, and having it on your wrist is a massive ballache in winter.

...and agree with Snoweider - if you practice timing and pacing until it's second nature in relatively benign settings, it's much easier than trying to get up to speed when the winds trying to knock you flat on the plateau

In reply to iamaclimber:

practising in non-winter conditions is absolutely essential. Get yourself to the point where it all makes sense while you're on the move so you don't have to stop for too long to figure things out and make decisions.

When you move into winter conditions everything becomes much harder and there are a lot more factors to consider, but it will be completely befuddling and maybe even dangerous if you don't have a base of experience in good conditions.

So what I'm saying is, a grounding in summer nav is essential, then move into winter conditions and add the layers of knowledge and experience that way.

In reply to iamaclimber:

Timing; I never do it. Pacing; I think it covers all options.

In reply to iamaclimber:

You need to calibrate your timing (and probably pacing) for a variety of conditions and get a feel for how and why speed and pacing changes. There's really no substitute for experience (as I'm finding out!)

Once you've got yourself calibrated you can choose timing or pacing. From what I've seen (limited experience here) is that timing is good for longer legs, pacing good for shorter ones. Combine both together, even if you just take the average and you'll be right on.

The tip about laminating a crib sheet is a good one.

In reply to thedatastream:

I find in winter long nav legs are not necessary and leave you too likely to make mistakes. If the ground is doing nothing for 1km, choose a different way of getting there. I aim to have the ground doing something every 200m if poss, or certainly soon after that. Skirt round a hill so the aspect changes if all else fails. Keep the hill changing and you can keep the legs short, that way you check your pacing and timings with the ground features regularly.

In reply to iamaclimber:

There is a lot of good stuff here.

Important to remember that all the different techniques mentioned, pacing, timing etc. are tools to be used where and when appropriate along with an excellent understanding of the information provided by the map.

Even simple ground near home can be put to good effect at night, with an aim to be as accurate as possible - if it doesn't work out first time go back, do it again and find out why you weren't accurate enough.

In reply to Ann65:

I agree, mostly good points in here.
I tend not to use timing but am more of a pacer as well, probably because I also struggle with timing mainly because if I stop for a gawp, or to think, or to investigate something I find it easier to do the sums in my head an locate myself on the map if I'm midway between 'features'.

For the contributors to this post; Can you contribute anything to the Nav on skis question as neither pacing or timing works, and in the likes of the mounth the terrain is pretty featureless. How do you maintain accuracy?

In reply to girlymonkey:


Totally agree with you there- but this caught me out for my WML assessment (see other thread)... On my training we had bluebird days and a full moon so very little nav. I then spent the next couple of winters doing lots of clever nav breaking legs down in to sensible chunks and doglegging merrily around the cairngorm plateau. On my assessment, I was allowed to do that once, and from there on in it was straight lines only allowed! Cruel! Being asked to do over a km on a bearing in zero vis was a bit of a mind bender to say the least (I got there in the end). The point of this became clear when we had to bail from the snowhole site in a storm. One single bearing got us off the hill- we had to follow it for several km in 100mph winds but it was really the only solution in those conditions. Fiddling with bearings and complicated nav in those circumstances just wasn't an option (mind you no normal person would have been there in the first place).

In reply to Seocan:

I've put marking at 25cm and 50cm from the tips of each ski to allow some form of distance measurement, but basically skiing in very limited vis is just rubbish so I prefer to use a GPS!

An issue with this - particularly in the Scottish climate - is snow gathering on the ski and covering the marks, although this can be mitigated to an extent by getting used to where the marks are relative tips and bindings.

Surely pacing and timing are just going to be as much of a pain if you are crossing changing terrain in the white room? If you're pushing into the wind then move into the lee your pace is going to change. Surely at least if your pacing you can just get a set of pacing beads and knuckle on?

Also I have used pacing beads twice in 5 years.

In reply to neilwiltshire:


As long as the altimeter is regularly reset, it's accurate enough (to within a few dozen metres), but in a whiteout there are exactly the conditions where you might be unable to find a suitable location to reset the altimeter - causing quite the problem!

In reply to iamaclimber:
Paraphrasing the words of my ML(W) assessor:
"If you are going to use timing, do it properly and use a stopwatch, stopping/starting it every you pause or stop."

Also, following up on Andy's comment, as an experienced climber/mountaineer I would entirely agree that there is no reason you can't just use pacing, but as a Winter ML out with a group of novices who may need encouragement and motivation, potentially spending half an hour in silence completely focused on pace counting may not be a realistic option. Timing is generally a less accurate option than pacing but it does allow you more scope to concentrate on group management. As such it is a key ML(W) skill and should be practiced.

In reply to girlymonkey:


And there's the secret,spend as much time as possible in the hills

In reply to Calski:


Ok, you've got me here, how does this help?

In reply to OwenM:

Slide one ski forward until the 25cm (or 50 if you've got long legs) is aligned with the tip of the other ski - that's a 1/4m - and so on. Essentially, 2 paces will give you 1m using the 25cm marker and 1 pace will give you 1m using the 50cm market. By paces I mean each pace = a step with both feet.

HOWEVER, I've only ever practiced with it and not used it when the weather was desperate. as I suggested in my original post, if vis is that bad, I'll either stay in a resort, walk or depend on my GPS (obviously not ideal).

In reply to Calski:

Pacing on skis/skins is the same as pacing when walking. It's when skiing downhill that's the difficult part. How do you keep on bearing whilst doing turns? How do work out how far you've traveled going downhill? An altimeter helps, you can use the slope aspect but that can change as you descend. There are one or two little tricks that you can use and as you say GPS (the second opinion) helps enormously.

In reply to Siward:


I agree with GirlyMonkey, but with the caveat that I have a day job, so that makes it a bit harder. Also, even in my part-time leading, I don't really often have to nav to the level we are expected to on assessment, be it S or W.

I am quite a confident navigator, borne of many a lone Munro year round, let alone my awards, but I always need to ease myself back into the 'driving test' again as it were.

In answer to the Op, it is difficult, and no one rule fits all. You need to be flexible in your approach, adaptable in your methods, and make those 4 things match, as best you can. Can't wait..........

In reply to OwenM:
Ah, totally misunderstood your original questions - apols.

Re downhill - I just avoid it if weather is that bad as I'm not clever enough to work out a way to ski downhill and navigate really accurately...