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Just wanted to put out my admiration for the people doing the Spine Race at the moment. It's windy enough down in Castleton at the moment but they're all up on the west rim of Kinder. The front runners are just coming up to the Downfall after an hour out from Edale. Good luck folks. Live race tracking here. http://spine.opentracking.co.uk/race/
In reply to Iain Thow:
Yes, that's some endurance event! They will be a little disappointed with the continuous high winds forecast I think. Takes some of the 'pleasure' out of it.
Yes, that's some endurance event! They will be a little disappointed with the continuous high winds forecast I think. Takes some of the 'pleasure' out of it.
In reply to Iain Thow:
I was walking around there yesterday and I could hardly stand on my feet, 60 mph hailstones aren't funny. Good luck to all the runners in this event.
I was walking around there yesterday and I could hardly stand on my feet, 60 mph hailstones aren't funny. Good luck to all the runners in this event.
In reply to Phil1919:
There are two races, full length spine started eleven thirty today and shorter spine challenger (100 odd miles) started earlier.
There are two races, full length spine started eleven thirty today and shorter spine challenger (100 odd miles) started earlier.
In reply to Iain Thow:
What a challenge, good luck everyone!!
Pavel Poloncy doing well at 00.08 (withins)
What a challenge, good luck everyone!!
Pavel Poloncy doing well at 00.08 (withins)
Post edited at 00:08
In reply to IainRUK:
The transponders are showing a group in Hawes just now and Pavel (no.1) at the Tan Hill which if that's right he has time for a few pints. The timing part of the site was down today for a time so could be timing issues.
The transponders are showing a group in Hawes just now and Pavel (no.1) at the Tan Hill which if that's right he has time for a few pints. The timing part of the site was down today for a time so could be timing issues.
In reply to Iain Thow:
Looks like they may be cutting the Cross Fell section out due to the weather and running a lower level alternative.
Looks like they may be cutting the Cross Fell section out due to the weather and running a lower level alternative.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Not sure but I think someone commented on the Spine FB page that he might have been a couple of hours quicker than last year's time to the same point (maybe CP2).
Someone also said last year he only had a couple of hours sleep in the first couple of days. Also this year he would have won the challenger by over an hour. Unbelievable!
Not sure but I think someone commented on the Spine FB page that he might have been a couple of hours quicker than last year's time to the same point (maybe CP2).
Someone also said last year he only had a couple of hours sleep in the first couple of days. Also this year he would have won the challenger by over an hour. Unbelievable!
In reply to Iain Thow:
A chap I used to walk with came second in the Challenger yesterday. Absolutely barking mad in that weather. Respect! (I don't try to keep up with on the hill any longer.....he used to smoke and drink like a fish, and then I had a chance....
A chap I used to walk with came second in the Challenger yesterday. Absolutely barking mad in that weather. Respect! (I don't try to keep up with on the hill any longer.....he used to smoke and drink like a fish, and then I had a chance....
In reply to JohnnyW:
Quite a few people I know who are in to long distance stuff seem to know and really like Jansen. A distance walking background is probably as good as any in this sort of event. It's much more about relentless forward progress and mental and physical strength than speed.
Quite a few people I know who are in to long distance stuff seem to know and really like Jansen. A distance walking background is probably as good as any in this sort of event. It's much more about relentless forward progress and mental and physical strength than speed.
In reply to The New NickB:
Yeah, he's a top bloke.
I once took him and a group of friends for a wee scramble on Arran, and many in his party weren't as good scramblers as I was led to believe. I ended up having a bit of a challenge getting them safely down the Witches's Step, aided by himself, his wife Lisa (who was a star given her lack of experience) and my young son......I joke that experience sent them all off to take up hill running instead!
Yeah, he's a top bloke.
I once took him and a group of friends for a wee scramble on Arran, and many in his party weren't as good scramblers as I was led to believe. I ended up having a bit of a challenge getting them safely down the Witches's Step, aided by himself, his wife Lisa (who was a star given her lack of experience) and my young son......I joke that experience sent them all off to take up hill running instead!
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Possibly, I don't know. I guess it might be hard to keep such a long route exactly the same every year, even if you ignore weather-imposed changes. For example, locations of CPs might have to change for access reasons, or paths are improved.
It's an interesting point. Even world records in track & field have rules as to weather they are valid or not (e.g. windspeed), and those events take place under far more consistent conditions!
> Wasn't last year's route also changed in a couple of places?
Possibly, I don't know. I guess it might be hard to keep such a long route exactly the same every year, even if you ignore weather-imposed changes. For example, locations of CPs might have to change for access reasons, or paths are improved.
It's an interesting point. Even world records in track & field have rules as to weather they are valid or not (e.g. windspeed), and those events take place under far more consistent conditions!
In reply to mountainbagger:
Can't be hard to keep it the same really they're just following the Pennine Way.
> Possibly, I don't know. I guess it might be hard to keep such a long route exactly the same every year, even if you ignore weather-imposed changes.
Can't be hard to keep it the same really they're just following the Pennine Way.
In reply to Steve Perry:
Pavel's been compulsorily stopped for over 10 hours and is apparently not sure if he'll continue. Perhaps he is human after all!
Pavel's been compulsorily stopped for over 10 hours and is apparently not sure if he'll continue. Perhaps he is human after all!
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Its a shame for him he was storming it. Sounds like they may allow for the stoppage but not sure how that would work as he effectively has had a huge rest mid race.
Its a shame for him he was storming it. Sounds like they may allow for the stoppage but not sure how that would work as he effectively has had a huge rest mid race.
In reply to Steve Perry:
Do the rules stop you getting ahead and then having a rest before carrying on?
Do the rules stop you getting ahead and then having a rest before carrying on?
In reply to Phil1919:
I assume this is tactics, he was so far ahead by running / walking through the first night, but at some point he will need to rest. Others will have taken some rest, but may need to rest less over the next couple of days.
The Challenger is very different, because the top guys can do it in one continuous push.
> Do the rules stop you getting ahead and then having a rest before carrying on?
I assume this is tactics, he was so far ahead by running / walking through the first night, but at some point he will need to rest. Others will have taken some rest, but may need to rest less over the next couple of days.
The Challenger is very different, because the top guys can do it in one continuous push.
In reply to The New NickB:
I thought it was an enforced stop?
I must admit to being very confused as to how this all works now - the people who'd been stopped at Horton have been allowed to carry on and have reached Middleton (possibly by a different route to Pavel Paloncy?) so some people have caught up and are now in the same place. Will he be allowed a headstart equal to the gap between him and the nearest other competitor when they were stopped when they decide it can all get going again? Or will they let everyone go at the same time?
OM
> I assume this is tactics, he was so far ahead by running / walking through the first night, but at some point he will need to rest. Others will have taken some rest, but may need to rest less over the next couple of days.
I thought it was an enforced stop?
I must admit to being very confused as to how this all works now - the people who'd been stopped at Horton have been allowed to carry on and have reached Middleton (possibly by a different route to Pavel Paloncy?) so some people have caught up and are now in the same place. Will he be allowed a headstart equal to the gap between him and the nearest other competitor when they were stopped when they decide it can all get going again? Or will they let everyone go at the same time?
OM
Post edited at 17:51
In reply to Iain Thow:
being stopped for so long would be very difficult mentally and physically. you wouldn't choose to do it. you'd come out of the 'zone' and it would be very difficult to get going again. Very tough on Pavel.
being stopped for so long would be very difficult mentally and physically. you wouldn't choose to do it. you'd come out of the 'zone' and it would be very difficult to get going again. Very tough on Pavel.
In reply to The New NickB:
The FB comment was very unspecific. I assumed it was weather related while they changed the route.
The FB comment was very unspecific. I assumed it was weather related while they changed the route.
In reply to Iain Thow:
I agree that the FB comments are a bit vague "dangerous local conditions around Cauldron Snout," Having done that bit in ice, snow, wind and rain and thought it was fine, and because it is 100 yards from the Cow Green dam, it can't be at risk of flood I can't imagine what the dangers could be at this point that aren't present at every other point on this race.
I think the organisers have a hell of a job on their hands keeping everyone in this race safe, I have said before that I think it is probably the most dangerous race in the UK, solo+night+winter+250miles, and if people want to take those risks that's up to them, it's up to the organisers to manage those risks, and that includes suspending the race for a bit then fine. But I find it a bit frustrating that they put out half a bit of information - like the above Couldron Snout quote.
I agree that the FB comments are a bit vague "dangerous local conditions around Cauldron Snout," Having done that bit in ice, snow, wind and rain and thought it was fine, and because it is 100 yards from the Cow Green dam, it can't be at risk of flood I can't imagine what the dangers could be at this point that aren't present at every other point on this race.
I think the organisers have a hell of a job on their hands keeping everyone in this race safe, I have said before that I think it is probably the most dangerous race in the UK, solo+night+winter+250miles, and if people want to take those risks that's up to them, it's up to the organisers to manage those risks, and that includes suspending the race for a bit then fine. But I find it a bit frustrating that they put out half a bit of information - like the above Couldron Snout quote.
In reply to Owen Meany: This is what I'm confused at too. It seemed to say his compulsory stop will be knocked off his end time, but if he now carries on and others haven't stopped, he's had a massive rest outwith the time. I'm sure the organisers will sort it, must be a nightmare for them trying to keep it going through this weather. Good luck to them all.
In reply to Steve Perry:
Well, looks like Damian Hall and Eoin Keith are now ahead of Pavel Poloncy, having taken the road route around the reservoir (whilst PP stuck to the PW route). Given how far ahead PP was, he must be absolutely gutted to have lost that lead! (Unless they're going to add a credit somehow)
OM
Well, looks like Damian Hall and Eoin Keith are now ahead of Pavel Poloncy, having taken the road route around the reservoir (whilst PP stuck to the PW route). Given how far ahead PP was, he must be absolutely gutted to have lost that lead! (Unless they're going to add a credit somehow)
OM
In reply to ablackett:
I was assuming that the section before Cauldron Snout (below Falcon Clints) is probably under water. You could go round the top instead, but I've done it and it was hideous (thigh deep heather and bogs.
I was assuming that the section before Cauldron Snout (below Falcon Clints) is probably under water. You could go round the top instead, but I've done it and it was hideous (thigh deep heather and bogs.
In reply to Owen Meany:
From FB "FYI - I am currently working on sorting out the time credits for mandatory holds. The leaderboard is not currently reflective of true positions. Your patience is appreciated."
From FB "FYI - I am currently working on sorting out the time credits for mandatory holds. The leaderboard is not currently reflective of true positions. Your patience is appreciated."
In reply to Steve Perry:
Yes agree as with a lot of races there is a set route, but it's not as reliably the same every year in the same way an athletics track might be, that's all I'm saying. Path improvements (or erosion), styles/gates/diversions, enforced rests (as we're seeing now) etc. could add up to a reasonable amount of time, especially stopping for 10 hours, getting some food and kip. Even if they credit the time, it's just not the same record for the same thing.
> Can't be hard to keep it the same really they're just following the Pennine Way.
Yes agree as with a lot of races there is a set route, but it's not as reliably the same every year in the same way an athletics track might be, that's all I'm saying. Path improvements (or erosion), styles/gates/diversions, enforced rests (as we're seeing now) etc. could add up to a reasonable amount of time, especially stopping for 10 hours, getting some food and kip. Even if they credit the time, it's just not the same record for the same thing.
In reply to mountainbagger:
That's the same for any long ultra trail.. The WHW is certainly quicker each year and often has small but normally fairly insignificant detours which means the record is fair regardless..
All this holding.. Missing sections.. Will mean no record this year for sure ..
That's the same for any long ultra trail.. The WHW is certainly quicker each year and often has small but normally fairly insignificant detours which means the record is fair regardless..
All this holding.. Missing sections.. Will mean no record this year for sure ..
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Yes that was my assumption too, I got flooded out camping there one winter. Poor place to choose but it was the first sheltered spot after staggering over from Dufton in 80mph winds. Had no sense in those days.
Yes that was my assumption too, I got flooded out camping there one winter. Poor place to choose but it was the first sheltered spot after staggering over from Dufton in 80mph winds. Had no sense in those days.
In reply to Iain Thow:
I understand route changes.. But personally I'd not be happy to be held up for bad weather ..
It's 280 odd miles in January for a reason, to make it Britain's most brutal race.. Bad weather is a given but also it's about who can cope and push on.. It's much more than a pure running race.
I'd love to do it but at the moment the cost is prohibitive..
I understand route changes.. But personally I'd not be happy to be held up for bad weather ..
It's 280 odd miles in January for a reason, to make it Britain's most brutal race.. Bad weather is a given but also it's about who can cope and push on.. It's much more than a pure running race.
I'd love to do it but at the moment the cost is prohibitive..
In reply to Iain Thow:
Without me going through the rules, how has the race kept people together? Have some not actually covered the whole distance? Have they been doing mass starts such as on the second day of the Karrimor?
Without me going through the rules, how has the race kept people together? Have some not actually covered the whole distance? Have they been doing mass starts such as on the second day of the Karrimor?
In reply to IainRUK:
Agree with what Iain says there. What's the point of holding it in January if you are going to hold the runners in bad weather?
They set off last weekend in very wild weather over Kinder, then they seemed to do more and more holding of runners as the race went on, despite the weather not getting worse. On Sunday I ran over (2 of) the Yorkshire 3 Peaks, it was windy, but not dangerous. The Spine racers were diverted away from the top of Pen-y-Ghent, then later on, a group were diverted north from Cow Green while those who had missed the diversion went over Cross Fell in pretty dreadful weather. It didn't look to make much sense from where I was sitting. Then on Wednesday, the weather was great, the leaders were held at CP5, then they set off into the storm on Thursday morning. Bonkers.
I would love to know what Pavel and Eoin think about it.
Agree with what Iain says there. What's the point of holding it in January if you are going to hold the runners in bad weather?
They set off last weekend in very wild weather over Kinder, then they seemed to do more and more holding of runners as the race went on, despite the weather not getting worse. On Sunday I ran over (2 of) the Yorkshire 3 Peaks, it was windy, but not dangerous. The Spine racers were diverted away from the top of Pen-y-Ghent, then later on, a group were diverted north from Cow Green while those who had missed the diversion went over Cross Fell in pretty dreadful weather. It didn't look to make much sense from where I was sitting. Then on Wednesday, the weather was great, the leaders were held at CP5, then they set off into the storm on Thursday morning. Bonkers.
I would love to know what Pavel and Eoin think about it.
In reply to Phil1919:
There are compulsory timeouts at each of the main checkpoints. I believe that there's a doctor or paramedic on hand to assess each competitors fitness to continue. This year some of the timeouts were extended due to the very high winds, the longest was the last one which was nearly 24hrs for the lead runners. Not sure how they'll adjust the times and placings, presumably the compulsory times are included in the total but not the extended. The lead two swapped positions going in to and out of the last checkpoint.
There are compulsory timeouts at each of the main checkpoints. I believe that there's a doctor or paramedic on hand to assess each competitors fitness to continue. This year some of the timeouts were extended due to the very high winds, the longest was the last one which was nearly 24hrs for the lead runners. Not sure how they'll adjust the times and placings, presumably the compulsory times are included in the total but not the extended. The lead two swapped positions going in to and out of the last checkpoint.
In reply to ablackett:
If I was Pavel or Eoin I'd be pretty pissed off, as they had time to get over the Cheviots on wednesday and instead had to do it thursday's gales. As you say, bonkers. Also, given the current publicity about Sport England's video to get more women involved in sport, why isn't there more mention of Beth Pascall's achievement in coming 4th, given that there are only 7 women in Run Britain's current top 1000. This race generates some great stories which could really inspire more people to get out there, shout about it folks! Terrific effort from all the runners, congrats to anyone who finished/finishes in these conditions.
If I was Pavel or Eoin I'd be pretty pissed off, as they had time to get over the Cheviots on wednesday and instead had to do it thursday's gales. As you say, bonkers. Also, given the current publicity about Sport England's video to get more women involved in sport, why isn't there more mention of Beth Pascall's achievement in coming 4th, given that there are only 7 women in Run Britain's current top 1000. This race generates some great stories which could really inspire more people to get out there, shout about it folks! Terrific effort from all the runners, congrats to anyone who finished/finishes in these conditions.
In reply to Iain Thow:
It would be interesting to see their times for the final section to see if they would have made it off the tops before the storms started. Graham Breeze makes some salient points about this on the FRA forums. Here's a copy:
"I think Geronimo's question, although about The Spine, impinges on the essence of fell running. There is a fundamental "contract" between competitors and ROs that applies to all fell and equivalent events: all that alters is the degree of hazard.
The RO chooses to provide a challenge but not something that is so hazardous that a fatality is likely/ probable etc and the competitors trust the RO not to route them up a vertical rock face or along an exposed windy ridge in the depths of winter.
These were issues that underpinned the Brian Belfield Inquest. To what extent can a RO be guilty of manslaughter in an event where runners had elected to participate in a sport that most people would think madness? The Coroner wisely pointed out that he should not stop people doing things they enjoyed just because most people would consider them foolhardy.
Negligence has to be balanced against volunteer competitors/ essential nature of the sport.
Whether it is a village gala race for juniors or The Spine the same fundamental decisions have to be made -all that alters is the degree. Not having a marshal at a turn in a summer fete race that allows a junior to venture onto and get lost on a moor is not a trivial failure of judgement.
As to The Spine. The RO are providing a major challenge for volunteers. Everyone knows there will always be weather in January and it will alter every year and every year the RO will have to make their calls with regard to safety, as they are doing in 2015.
Remembering that they always, always have to err on the side of caution. And that it is just a race. "
It would be interesting to see their times for the final section to see if they would have made it off the tops before the storms started. Graham Breeze makes some salient points about this on the FRA forums. Here's a copy:
"I think Geronimo's question, although about The Spine, impinges on the essence of fell running. There is a fundamental "contract" between competitors and ROs that applies to all fell and equivalent events: all that alters is the degree of hazard.
The RO chooses to provide a challenge but not something that is so hazardous that a fatality is likely/ probable etc and the competitors trust the RO not to route them up a vertical rock face or along an exposed windy ridge in the depths of winter.
These were issues that underpinned the Brian Belfield Inquest. To what extent can a RO be guilty of manslaughter in an event where runners had elected to participate in a sport that most people would think madness? The Coroner wisely pointed out that he should not stop people doing things they enjoyed just because most people would consider them foolhardy.
Negligence has to be balanced against volunteer competitors/ essential nature of the sport.
Whether it is a village gala race for juniors or The Spine the same fundamental decisions have to be made -all that alters is the degree. Not having a marshal at a turn in a summer fete race that allows a junior to venture onto and get lost on a moor is not a trivial failure of judgement.
As to The Spine. The RO are providing a major challenge for volunteers. Everyone knows there will always be weather in January and it will alter every year and every year the RO will have to make their calls with regard to safety, as they are doing in 2015.
Remembering that they always, always have to err on the side of caution. And that it is just a race. "
In reply to Bob:
I agree Graham Breeze's summing up is a good balanced one, but the control at Bellingham must surely have known that those two could get over in time, and the forecast was always for windier on thursday. Pavel & Eoin were in Bellingham at 8.41 on wednesday, left the next morning and still got to KY by around dark, despite worse weather, so I'm pretty certain they could have finished on wednesday.
I agree Graham Breeze's summing up is a good balanced one, but the control at Bellingham must surely have known that those two could get over in time, and the forecast was always for windier on thursday. Pavel & Eoin were in Bellingham at 8.41 on wednesday, left the next morning and still got to KY by around dark, despite worse weather, so I'm pretty certain they could have finished on wednesday.
In reply to Iain Thow:
I was in the checkpoint at Bellingham when Pavel and Eoin arrived. the advice that we had at the time from the Met office was that a very deep depression was due over the UK.The forecast was for 80 - 90 mph winds between 4 pm and 8pm on the hill tops. It was on this information that the decision was made to hold Pavel and Eoin. As the day unfolded the forecast changed however the decision for the re-start time had been made and the runners based their down time on the information given to them. The fact the they made it so quickly could be down to the fact that they had 21 hours rest and not the 2 hours that they were plannning.
Both Pavel and Eoin were happy with the decision and i made them flapjack to pass the time.
Hope this answers your questions.
I was in the checkpoint at Bellingham when Pavel and Eoin arrived. the advice that we had at the time from the Met office was that a very deep depression was due over the UK.The forecast was for 80 - 90 mph winds between 4 pm and 8pm on the hill tops. It was on this information that the decision was made to hold Pavel and Eoin. As the day unfolded the forecast changed however the decision for the re-start time had been made and the runners based their down time on the information given to them. The fact the they made it so quickly could be down to the fact that they had 21 hours rest and not the 2 hours that they were plannning.
Both Pavel and Eoin were happy with the decision and i made them flapjack to pass the time.
Hope this answers your questions.
In reply to jayme:
Cheers for the reply. Forecasts change over time, I guess.
Hope they enjoyed the flapjack!
Cheers for the reply. Forecasts change over time, I guess.
Hope they enjoyed the flapjack!
In reply to jayme:
Congrats to all involved, runners and organisers, brilliant effort in those conditions. Now please shout about it, this is just the stuff to get people inspired and active out there. Some great stories - e.g. Beth Pascall knocking a whole 50 hours off the women's record, Pavel's travails, loads of runners finishing with an all nighter along the snowed up Cheviots, lots of runners helping each other out when somebody is having a tough time, great stuff.
Congrats to all involved, runners and organisers, brilliant effort in those conditions. Now please shout about it, this is just the stuff to get people inspired and active out there. Some great stories - e.g. Beth Pascall knocking a whole 50 hours off the women's record, Pavel's travails, loads of runners finishing with an all nighter along the snowed up Cheviots, lots of runners helping each other out when somebody is having a tough time, great stuff.
In reply to Iain Thow:
Just come across this great pic of Beth et al finishing on thursday night.
http://www.montane.co.uk/repository/Editor/assets/images/news/large_DSC_040...
Just come across this great pic of Beth et al finishing on thursday night.
http://www.montane.co.uk/repository/Editor/assets/images/news/large_DSC_040...
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