UKH

Hi guys,

With the Grigri 1 out of production and the Grigri 2 not suitable for use with semi-static ropes, what belay device have others started using as a replacement? I've been looking into using the Edelrid Eddy as a replacement and wondered if anyone has any group/centre experience with them? how do they handle thicker ropes? are they tricky to lower lightweight kids?

Thanks,

Jess

In reply to Jess_Hold:
Out of interest why do you want to belay on static rope?

In reply to Jess_Hold:
Out of interest, and I probably should know this, but why can't you use the 2 with a semi static?

Under detailed description, Just says ropes. Doesn't specify dynamic or static. And pretty much every route setter I know uses it with static setting lines.

http://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/Belay-devices--descenders/GRIGRI-2#.VKLiwcI_A

In reply to Oceanrower:

From memory the grigri 2 isn't excluded from use with semi-static. The recommendations will be for dynamic as that's how Petzl envisaged its use... Then along come cavers and access workers!

I've used the 2 with semi-static 9-11mm for caving (lifelining) and it works excellently. I'm also not the only one. One useful function with the 2 is the fact it will work on 9mm rope. This is useful in rescue rigs since quite a lot of sport cavers now use 9mm.

Semi-static rope en1891 is tested for maximum impact forces below 6kn with fall factor 0.3. Not a fall I'd like to suffer but being semi-static doesn't preclude its use in top (bottom) rope situations - it requires vigilant use.

In reply to Oceanrower:
Thanks for the link. Two things stand out - not all uses are described and it talks of compatability. Nothing to preclude semi-static.

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Interesring. Where are you based? MRO use Rigs as Grigri (either variety) isn't approved for rescue use (according to the warden, sitting next to me!)

In reply to Jess_Hold:

They can be used for static ropes. They do have quite a narrow sweet spot for lowering without engaging the clutch but would be fine for groups as long as they were taught how to use them!

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

What in the world is a Sport Caver?

In reply to JoshOvki:
As much as there is any definition to make with cavers it probably amounts to those that aren't digging, or aren't engaged in really hard trips such as those rigged off naturals or spits. Following the dots on a p-bolted route would amount to a sport trip. I've probably picked it up from French caving texts. Suppose a tourist trip would be the same thing.

In reply to Oceanrower:

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the replies

In the technical notes for the gri-gri 2 it specifies single dynamic ropes, although doesn't seem to make reference to NOT using static ropes.

from the Petzl technical notes on the Grigri 2:

'Compatible with 8.9-11mm CE EN 892 and/or UIAA certified dynamic kernmantel single ropes.'

I have used the Gri-gri 2 personally with static ropes (route setting) and it does seem to work, however I'm talking about group sessions, in which we obviously have to stick to the book.

Cheers,

Jess

In reply to Jess_Hold:

I'm still trying to think of what group sessions you'd be running with static ropes.

In reply to jezb1:

I know guides who prefer top roping clients on static (never asked if it was semi) due to the better durability.

Which does raise an interesting question... In situations where top roping bottom belay is the only use case, why use dynamic over semi static? In the worst case of ff approaching 0.5, hitting the ground would be my main concern, not rope impact force of semi vs dynamic.

In reply to Jess_Hold:
What did "the book" say for the Grigri Mk1? I don't know, but suspect it may have been just the same.

Would a more traditional belay device not be more appropriate for group sessions anyway? (Particularly with climbers who're likely to go on to get into climbing, as opposed to kids birthday parties and the like.)

In reply to needvert:

Static, semi-static, LSK (low stretch kernmantle) - all the same stuff.

In reply to Oceanrower:

Belaying a group TR session on static or semi-static is preferable if you have larger clients, as it is possible to deck on rope stretch alone with a dynamic if the client is not very far off the ground.

I have seen this occur with a young lady who was very large, and after climbing approximately 5 foot from the floor announced she was coming down, even with all the slack pulled up from the system and the belayer tight up on a ground anchor the weight of the young lady stretched the dynamic rope and she landed on her backside. A static or semi static would have prevented this.

The Tech Adviser for the company who were running the session had advised using semi-static rope when running a TR session.

In reply to Jess: I have used an eddy extensively with groups for both climbing and High ropes sessions and it works absolutely fine, the fact that if the lever is pulled back too far the device locks off is a nice feature in my opinion. I still prefer a Gri-Gri for personal use though.

In reply to Nordie_matt:

Thanks Matt! Good to know.

Semi-static ropes are good on group sessions (as people have already mentioned) to reduce rope stretch, but also for climbing on softer rock where rope damaging the rock is an issue, for instance it is recommended to belay using a static rope on Southern Sandstone.

Cheers,

Jess

In reply to Jess_Hold:

Part of the reason that the grigri isn't rated for semi static could be due to internal reasons at petzl, different discrete business units competing for the same business?

So nothing to do with function, although as you note if you're arse covering then you're a tiny bit exposed.

On the eddy itself I didn't find it much use with kids but I'm working from memory as I gave up on it a couple of years ago.

Obviously it depends on the weight of the kiddie but I found that I kept overshooting the sweet spot and engaging the cam because kids less than 25 kg didn't overcome friction sufficiently to lower at a decent rate, so you keep activating the handle til it's too late. That's partly due to old wall ropes probably but certainly if you're leading anything overhanging the friction increases and even with a tuber you can end up pulling rope thru rather than lowering smoothly.

Once the cam is engaged you've often got to put your thumb in to release it without dropping the rope, which is a bit fiddly and seemed much more difficult for kids to do, especially if they are a lot lighter than the climber, so I gave up on it quite quickly.

In reply to Jess_Hold:


That's the rigging rope used to construct TR anchors and extend as necessary isn't it?
(Which is likely not going to be the same rope used for the actual belay.)

In reply to Jess_Hold:



I think you're wrong there.

Static or slings for the anchor.

What you belay with makes absolutely no difference as it won't be against the rock.

I've seen people climbing on static rope on Southern Sandstone.

In reply to jwa:

I'm sure you have. That doesn't mean it's a good idea!

In reply to Jess_Hold:

I use the Eddy a lot for lead rope solo.

Before you use it with a group, play with it a lot - sorry if you have done this and this sounds like grannies sucking eggs - as it has it intricacies. In particular, there is a sweet spot with the arm where the cam can lock open. There is a video of this problem being demo'ed at a climbing on the web, but I can't find it. Maybe someone else can.

In reply to Oceanrower:

Hi Oceanrower,
I'm after information about the Eddy, so don't want to get drawn into any argument about this or anything. I can assure you that bottom rope belaying on Southern Sandstone with a semi static rope as the climbing rope is standard, it reduces wear on the rock both where the rope touches the rock (which often happens slightly even though we try our best to not let it touch) and by stopping the climber descending too much during a fall, scrubbing the rock with their feet (for this reason it is a rule that you top out on SS, rather than lower down at the end of a climb).

SSC recommend the use of semi statics here:

http://www.southernsandstoneclimbs.co.uk/p/equipment.html

Thanks Dave Colley, I have had a play around with it and was just after some other experiences on here

Cheers,

Jess