UKH

As per the title I've pondered this for some time. Women are under represented in winter climbing, at the MIC level and at BMG plus prolific amateur. Why is this?
My wife suggests that wintery cold conditions play a part (she is quite petite). Perhaps family considerations? The fact is that women's athletic ability is not preclusive, so why are there so many less women at this doing this?

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Because they are too smart to get invovled in such a thoroughly unpleasant activity?

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

Dude, that's a cop-out. Answer properly!

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

You've never been up in Aviemore when 'Chicks with Picks' is on then?

In reply to blurty:

Mr Blurty: are you a lady? I'd like some sensible answers please?

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

It's difficult for them to pee wearing harness & salopetes.

Stuart

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

It's probably true. Though it is always good again when you're having a pint in the pub after though

In reply to Stuart the postie:

Lol women have better bladder control than men.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

I don't buy any of this, Must do better.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

There should be mandatory quotas, no party allowed on the mountain unless there's 50% female representation.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

I think there's some physiological evidence women feel the cold more (and tend to have colder extremities) although I'm not sure how convincing it is overall. I certainly feel the cold, particularly if I'm standing around in the cold - on winter team practices I'll frequently be wearing a couple of layers of merino, mid layer fleece, paramo and thick belay jackets when some of the blokes are happy in a thin thermal and a paramo top.... And I'll still be cold after running down odd the hill, and only really warm up after a hot bath/shower.

Which all means I'm quite happy to solo easy winter routes, but hanging about belay stances in winter has little appeal......

I think the family commitments thing is also relevant - by the time I had a decent amount if winter experience and might have considered roped routes, I very quickly had young kids, and a good few years where escaping for weekends away in Scotland wasn't very practical. Mysteriously my husband managed to do most of his MIA during this period!

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Also, it's really pretty recent that suitable kit has been available in women's sizes, including basics like stiff boots. Sure, it's been easily available for maybe 15 years now, but that's perhaps part of the historical legacy. And the badly fitting bloke's kit of the late 80s/early 90s did nothing to improve warmth.....

In reply to Carolyn:

I think you should rule your husband more effectively!

Still not seeing good evidence!

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Is it a problem?

In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
It's a burning question, so yes, it is to me. Heaps of nails women rock climbers, but Scottish winter very few. Why?

In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:

I was going to say .. 'Scottish winter, not a sausage'. And then something about playing into the hands of innuendo.... but FFS I give up.

Still after a serious answer. I see no reason.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:


That was a proper answer. I'm with Carolyn on this. Back when I was young and daft and actually did winter climbing I thought that soloing easy routes and ridges in sunshine was as good as it got but freezing my ass off in spindrift avalanches with feet like blocks of ice lashed to a dodgy belay while somewhere in the mist above someone bounced chunks of ice off my helmet was my idea of hell. I discover skiing was a much morse enjoyable use of winter mountains and then someone invented winter sun rock and I was free. My experience of women is that a lot of them are very bright and far too intelligent to get involved in such masochistic practices twice

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

I'm no woman, but I don't winter climb.
Too much trudging up hills, too cold and uncomfortable, trad is safe in comparison - and thats still dangerous, distance from home to crag is huge, even more expense and clashes with winter sun trips - which have more reliable conditions.
Oh, and a lack of suitable partners which I trust enough.

I realise there are many plus points. But being a bit whimpy (though not overly risk adverse), I have never pursued it. I suspect that many women and gents share a similar list of why nots. AND there are simply fewer ladies that are dedicated to climbing type sports than men.

In reply to Kevster:

AND there are simply fewer ladies that are dedicated to climbing type sports than men.

......Why?

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Sexism.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

i was chatting to Tania N and she commented that no matter how fit you are the mandatory heavy sack is a whole lot easier to carry on a 14st frame than a 10st one.

Carolyn is probably right with children timings too.

The irrational daftness appeals to the male psyche too i reckon.

In reply to alasdair19:

I recall Lynn Hill mentioned this issue in her book as a significant contributing factor for her not doing much mountaineering.

In reply to Carolyn:

yeah agree with carolyn - I had to go all the way to the Peak to try on stiff boots in small sizes. My local climbing shop (at the time) told me there wasnt much call for womens winter kit. Since they didnt stock any, I wasnt quite sure how they knew....

I reckon the overall pool of people winter climbing is still smaller than rock climbing, trad climbing is smaller than sport, sport than indoor, and indoor than bouldering. So a smaller pool to start with. Lots more equipment needed for winter, much harder to fit round other activities, most folk cant just pop out to a local crag, conditions harder to anticipate so you have to be able to go at short notice , both things which tend to be harder for women with kids than men - plus I think there being less women already involved at present also makes it harder for other women to get into it and find climbing partners. I do struggle with kit on the walkins, only being wee, but there are lots of tall and strong women out there too so I'm not convinced how much of a factor that is.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:
For me its the co!d on belay stances. I love winter mountaineering, and will climb up to the point where a rope is needed. No matter how good my kit is, I get cold when I stop. When mountaineering or ski touring I put oat cakes in my pocket and munch as I go. Stopping is not an option unless I get into a group shelter (not practical on a belay stance). Winter is my favourite time on the hill, and weight of pack doesn't affect me much, I'm wee but strong. Just belay stances that are my problem. For similar reasons I don't do much trade early or late season either.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

It is a bit of a masculine macho sport though.

Man conquer obsticle using shiny tools ug... kind of thing.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

it's like asking why aren't there more female bog snorkelling enthusiasts.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:


Well, if you can come up with a way for him to do the pregnancy and breastfeeding bit, do let me know

(And winter mountaineering - even very easy routes - whilst pregnant is mighty hard work.......)

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

I’m female and I don’t especially feel the cold. Well it’s not that I don’t feel it more that I don’t register it as discomfort, so for me that’s not a factor at all.

I would like to try winter climbing but it’s more committing in terms of time (I’d need a weekend away, minimum) than rock climbing (I live in Sheffield – good crags 20 mins drive away in several directions!) While my other half is understanding in terms of me spending an evening climbing with blokes, a weekend away is more difficult and I don’t know any women I could go with. I did eventually talk him into letting me go up to Glencoe one winter and guess what? Conditions were awful – mild and drizzly. Now I have a daughter, I can’t honestly see when my next chance will come or whether given a tiny and much treasured fraction of free time I will feel like squandering it driving up to Glencoe, looking at some rain and driving home again.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Women generally lack the stupidity and self-indulgence required for winter climbing. I don't underestimate the difficulties of peeing in the cold either, I've heard of lady mountaineers getting kidney infections from not drinking enough.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:
I'm a bit hesitant about generalising here as women (like men) are pretty diverse, but I think that one factor, as others have mentioned, is physical size. Once you have a sac with your share of the gear needed for winter climbing, you've got a really heavy sac. I've enjoyed some of the winter climbing I've done (OK, some only in retrospect, but I guess that's normal) but the kit carrying issue is a big thing for me. I'm quite small, even as women go, so whatever I do I'm carrying a much larger percentage of my body weight than somebody bigger than me. OK, my crampons are a bit smaller than a bigger persons, and my clothes are smaller and I guess I'll need a bit less food than a bigger person ... but still. Perhaps it's an excuse, but I think it's really a size thing for me. So, only indirectly about gender. It has been suggested to me that I shouldn't feel obliged to carry half the gear if I'm climbing with a partner who is much bigger than me - rather, one could try and roughly split things so that we are carrying a similar proportion of our own body weight. I can see that this would be equitable. And have taken this approach when doing long distance back-packing. But it still puts me off the whole endeavour as I like to be independent/pull my weight. And what if I went winter climbing with somebody the same size as me - who would carry our stuff?

I guess the issue about childcare is going to be a factor too, given the time needed for winter climbing. That's not an excuse I can use though. So, I'm just left with the excuse that it's all so much harder for me because I'm only little! No doubt there will some tiny dynamo out there to prove me wrong ....

In reply to iksander:
"Women generally lack the stupidity and self-indulgence required for winter climbing"
"Man conquer obsticle using shiny tools ug."

I think you underestimate the cross gender appeal of shiny tools and gross stupidity ;-D

In reply to iksander:

I don't underestimate the difficulties of peeing in the cold either, I've heard of lady mountaineers getting kidney infections from not drinking enough.

It's not just climbing, winter mountaineering walking or skiing has the same issue. It's not really that hard, you just have to be quick!

In reply to Carolyn:

>

I think there is some truth in that. In my experience women complain about the cold more than men, but then when it comes to the crunch men die sooner in extreme conditions! (as in the Donner party epic)

In reply to Trangia:


I'm not really sure about the detail of the Donner party, but wasn't starvation as much of an issue as the cold? And I guess women have an advantage there as they tend to store more body fat. I think!

The only reason I question it is that in the only example in my personal experience - 3 climbers benighted on a Scottish winter route - both men survived the night, but the (petite) woman very sadly died of hypothermia. I've always thought it was likely poorly fitting clothing was likely to have been a big factor in failing to stay warm, as it was the days before women's sizes were readily available in more than the basics.

In reply to Carolyn:

For me though, and I appreciate we are all different, the speed I get cold has very little to do with how well fitting my clothing it, or how much of it I wear. I stop moving - I get cold. Even at home, I am always cold when I stop. I'm currently studying, and spend lots of time sitting at a computer. My husband has bought be down slippers, which I tend to wear with smartwool socks. I have on today a long sleeved top, a hoodie, my fleecey dressing gown and I have just finished crocheting handwarmers that I can still type with. I often have a hat on too. This is in my house with no weather affecting me!!
I think so much depends on a person's make up, but there does seem to be more women who feel the cold quicker.

In reply to girlymonkey:


Surely make up is a whole different issue?

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Some of the East European women seem to face much worse conditions and still climb, is this thread a bit UK centric?

In reply to winhill:

I've seen the amount some girls plaster on their faces (not often in the mountains, right enough!), surely it must have some thermal properties when it gets to several mm of thickness!

In reply to winhill:

some UK women face these conditions and still climb. They question was why are there fewer of them than men.

In reply to Simon4:


I would never give myself that option. I don't care how much smaller I am than anyone else, I carry half the kit, end of story. Maybe that's just me being incredibly stubborn, but I always carry my fair share of joint kit. My own personal kit might be lighter, I spend more to carry less, but if it's getting shared out, I take half.

In reply to Carolyn:


>You are right, I think it was a combination of starvation and cold. The two are probably linked.

As I understand it it the Donner party deaths took a pattern with the boys and young single men being the first to succumb, followed by girls and young single women, followed by married men and finally married women. The theory being that the latter two categories benefitted from mutual body warmth, and the surviving women, including the newly widowed, had more fat reserves. Overall many more males died than females.

The situation you describe was very sad. Is it probable that a petite woman will have less fat reserves than the larger men? As for loose fitting clothing, might this, in theory at least, be an advantage in that there will be a layer of trapped warm air between the skin and the clothing as in string vests? Just speculating, I really don't know!

In reply to Trangia:


I don't think fat reserves will be likely to be a great influence in relatively acute hypothermia (as opposed to longer term starvation and cold) - at least no massive difference between a fit slim bloke and fit slim woman - those who've eaten all the pies for many years may be at an advantage, assuming they managed to make it to the crag!

What I found with wearing badly fitting men's kit (or indeed any badly fitting, loose kit!) was that there wasn't any trapped warm air between the skin and clothing - spare space meant the wind whipped through it and and warm air was being constantly replaced by freezing cold air at skin level!

In reply to Murko Fuzz: i'm not sure it's the cold - i have a friend whos an exceptionally good skier, doing hard alpine toåringen, winter camping, teaching snowholing et al, has pulled a sled across greenland and so on. She has been winter climbing but She just reckoned it was a lot of faff, and just goes climbing in the summer.

So i reckon there aren't many as it's only a small pool to start with , and for most women it has the same appeal as banger racing

In reply to girlymonkey:

Stubborn-ness is good for Winter climbers or Alpinists, sometimes it, or more accurately plain pig-headedness is essential to get anything done. On the other hand, sometimes your body is just not firing for whatever reason and you HAVE to allow your partner to take weight off you, wrap you up or whatever needs doing - you are endangering the whole party otherwise. Done it for others, had it done for me, you can often not really know if it is altitude, lack of fitness, cold, injury from stonefall or whatever it may be that is stopping you functioning fully, you CANNOT contribute your fair share.

In those circumstances, it is best just to recognise the fact and let yourself be helped out of the situation.

In reply to Simon4:


No doubt.

I have a theory that women are generally more prone to lopsided helmets. Maybe it's a hair thing?

In reply to girlymonkey:


I do the same. But there is more than one way to define 'fair share'.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

I would say all these things are a factor, but now gear is getting lighter and women's clothing is getting better it might be, in part, just the lag between accepting women into the sport and women taking the invitation, so to speak. It is a similar story in many traditionally male-dominated professions. Engineering is an example, the field is basically begging women to become engineers, and it is finally starting to have an effect as seen in universities all over the place. But it takes a while.

Btw I'm happy to distribute gear in a body weight proportional measure, and looking for winter partners up to grade IV, but keen to do lots of I,II,III, as well. =)

In reply to Simon4:

My winter helmet is permanently squinty too. No matter how often I straighten it, it always slides to a squinty angle again. My lightweight summer helmet, and my bike helmet are both fine. As the the reason, no idea. It feels even and tight enough when I put it on. Just one of those things I think

In reply to girlymonkey:

I think the simple answer is women are a bit soft and don't like the rain or cold, this is what my wife and daughter say anyway, before I am excused of sexism.
Must say though that at work whenever there was any outside jobs or manual handling going on, most women were experts at making themselves scarce or coming up with ingenious excuses for not carrying anything or going outside unless it was very warm.
I climb with two females regularly and neither will hang around on harder winter routes, they will only do easy stuff where they can move fast.

In reply to cathsullivan:


Well I find my hair really makes my helmet lopsided, especially when it has just been permed.

No, hang on, that was 20 years ago, when I still had hair.

In reply to Gael Force:

Ingenious excuses for not carrying anything? Like I'm too small? Hmmm, may I refer you back to my point that I refuse to carry less than half of the shared kit?! In fact, as I am quicker on the hill than my husband, I often carry more than him of shared stuff to even us up!
Your wife and daughter may be soft, I'd challenge you to come mountaineering with me and say I'm soft - it's only belay stances I don't do. Rain, wind, blizzards all fine, just stopping that's not. (Although I'm back at uni this year and not had time to get on a hill for about 8 weeks now, so maybe I will become soft if I'm not careful :-S )

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

I always thought that females, theoretically at least, should have a stronger resistance to cold as they have more body fat, relatively speaking, than men. Having said that I've never experienced it in practice and most females I know seem to express that they are cold far more often than the men I know although this could be the male ego at work.

I think it's more to do with them having a stronger instinct for survival, less willingness to take risks and an absence of testosterone. There are also far fewer female trad climbers than female sport climbers which could be seen as lending support to this. When sports climbing became popular the number of females that I saw climbing rocketed. I also think that the gap is closing so perhaps it's simply a case of them catching up with what have been, historically, male dominated activities and absolutely nothing to do with gender.

In reply to GridNorth:

http://www.bodyandsoul.com.au/health/health+news/why+women+feel+the+cold+mo...

In reply to girlymonkey:

So, I was right but also wrong.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:



Social conditioning from day dot & nature/genetic element with respect to risk taking and the wish to go out from our home range to explore etc etc.
I suspect though that nurture is far more of a deciding factor than nature.

Personally I'd like to see a more even spread in numbers. Too much testosterone inevitably becomes boring and the day ends with way too much willy waving. But thats me being selfish I guess.

In reply to girlymonkey:

It's a bit soft not to do belay stances is it not, although having said that I'm more into ski touring and sport climbing these days, but that's because as you get older you also get a bit soft...or maybe I mean more sensible ;]

In reply to Carolyn:

Julie Tullis never seemed to have issues with getting gear

In reply to RichardP:


It would depend on body shape & size I imagine, some women struggle more than others.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Boots and crampons are still a problem for small feet, but clothing isn't really an issue these days. There is less choice than there is for guys, but I'd be surprised if women couldn't find something suitable, even if it went exactly what they were looking for. Size 4.5 boots however... That's another issue!! I had to order many pairs online, then send back what I didnt want. I had over £1000 of boots in the house at line stage so I could compare them all, then getting crampons to fit as a pain too. Length wise,they are fine, but the narrow heel in my boots meant many crampons didn't stay secure.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Well there's been some interesting chat here and some good one liners. I'm surprised after scrolling back through this thread, I'm not quite sure why. Perhaps it's the matter of fact way the women in particular have been so matter of fact about their reasons. Perhaps I felt that there was no reason, and that people would respond with the likes of.....'oh yeah, why aren't there more. Women! lets winter climb more!'
So from this thread: heavy loads, cold extremities, family life and perhaps social conditioning? I admit that prior to my asking this question my wife stated without hesitation something very similar, the cold. She toils with it a winter climbing environment where belays involved. To the point where she now hardly ever winter climbs.
Maybe I've been naive.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Many of my female friends who have started winter climbing have gradually given up, for many of the reasons you've given like family, or not liking the cold, but probably the biggest factor seems to be a perception that winter climbing is too risky.

I really like winter climbing, but the appeal has nothing to do with conquering things with shiny tools or psyche to take big risks, (I'm not at all brave!) I just love the sense of adventure and being out in the mountains. Climbing a single pitch crag can be fun for a while, but it just doesn't have the appeal of a day out in the mountains. I can't bring myself to climb plastic all winter long, and yes sure I could go winter hillwalking or take up ski mountaineering to get some time in the mountains, but winter climbing is great, because it means I can enjoy climbing in the mountains, it's worth getting cold and sometimes a bit scared for that.

It's a shame there aren't more female winter climbers, I actually find it quite hard now to find other women to go winter climbing with. (Not that I mind climbing with men, but it's quite fun to climb in a female team, as there's often quite a different dynamic). But maybe that will change and we'll see more women take it up.

In reply to Elsier:


Ski-touring can also be quite risky, most obviously from avalanches, but also skiing over cliffs in poor visibility or skiing over heavily crevassed terrain.


On the (not very many) occasions I have Winter climbed with women, I have found them to be good fun - and generally do NOT do a lot of complaining, though maybe I have just been lucky with the women I have climbed with.


Yes, I can see that, also that you would want to feel you are taking a full part in the decision making (on the basis that men are mostly, but not always, more experienced - or at any rate think they are!). But then most of us if we are climbing with stronger/more experienced partners do have a sort of mental crutch. Its not often you get an equally balanced pair, with similar ambitions and goals (though very, very good when you do).

In reply to Carolyn:


You don't have to guess, this stuff is a matter of scientific record - for example this paper which details seasonal differences between men and women with Reynaud's.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11453886/?i=3&from=/24802142/relat...

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

I LOVE winter climbing, although I'm rubbish at it, and struggle with fear and fitness (less so with cold). I'm quite a tall lass but the big packs definitely slow me down. I do just love it though. For various reasons I didn't do any proper climbing last winter and I'm actually on the edge of my seat waiting for this season to get going. Did I mention that I love it?

Why are there not so many female winter climbers? I think that there is something slightly brutish about it although women do suffering as well as men. I would guess that some of this is down to expectations. There are lots of guys out there that don't winter climb for all the reasons listed above that women use, those are not female specific reasons. Maybe women just don't see themselves in that role, on that route? Positive female role models are there, but most of the ones I can think of that are celebrated are either knocking on a bit or gone. I remember being totally inspired by Sue Nott speaking at an event in Bristol back in the 90s. She was tiny, blonde, wearing pink lipgloss and absolutely NAILS. Sadly she died on Mt Foraker with Karen McNeill, another super hard female ice climber.

In reply to Carolyn:


My wife is the sort of person that could freeze in a volcano. She wears a vest between about September and April and if she gets cold hands and feet, they stay cold for quite some time - blames her Mum for Raynauds. She currently has a second single duvet over her half of the bed. She'll be bundled up while I'm still in a t-shirt.

She would consider winter climbing as some sort of hell, although at least hell would be warm.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Personal choice, does there need to be a reason?

but there is physiological reason why there are less top female winter climbers in comparison to summer. Particularly (but not exclusively) steep ice requires a certain amount of upper body strength that no amount of technique and experience can get around. im not only on about pull up and grip strength, but also the strength to wield heavy axes above your head repeatedly whilst swinging them into the ice. and this engages muscle groups which are often under developed in climbers (shoulders, triceps etc). it is simple physiological fact that on average men have higher base line upper body strength than women.

I suppose the lack of female role models in winter may have a sociological limiting factor on female participation...

In reply to Webster:

are you genuinely so out of date that you think steep ice is cutting edge winter climbing?

In reply to Webster:

But all that applies to situations like steep bouldering, too, and there's plenty of women doing well at that. And wouldn't the typical greater strength of men be countered by the typical lesser weight of women?


I think this might be quite significant - although I know there's a good number of female winter climbers doing hard routes, the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Fiona Murray and Innes Papert* . Which is my failing for not paying attention, combined with the fact that less attention is drawn to them.
Or, and perhaps this is pertinent, they draw less attention to themselves. And maybe male winter climbers are particularly susceptible to the lure of the First Ascent - I'd have to defer to someone much more knowledgeable to suggest winter routes in Scotland put up by parties that contained at least one woman (again, this is my own failing, rather than a criticism of female winter climbers)


*Edit: Just remembered Catherine Destivelle as well

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

My 2p:

Climbing has always been male-dominated, and only quite recently has there been a significant increase in women taking part. The uptake into winter climbing has been slow in comparison to other styles simply because winter is more grim and harder to get into, for various reasons. Despite this slow start, I can imagine that if more women get into it, more again will be inspired and participation may grow exponentially. You could call this a sort of *drumroll* ...snowball effect.

Then again, as stated, winter is grim. I see no reason to do it except to affirm my manliness, and as women have no manliness to affirm there is just no need.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Interesting....

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Generally as some others have said I think winter climbing is just more difficult to get into especially if you don't live in Scotland. It's much easier to go to the wall or do some cragging where there are probably equal numbers. I think there are probably less women climbing mountain trad routes as well. For winter climbing you need to have a reasonable winter mountaineering background and the grades are much more conditions dependent with extra things to judge.

When people ask why I like winter climbing It reminds me of a talk Messner gave. He was asked what was so special about his physiology that made him able to do the 8000m peaks without oxygen etc. Was he some sort of superhuman? He replied no it was quite simple 'I enjoy suffering' and that was the real key to the big peaks.

So I think willingness to endure a certain level of discomfort is relevant but I am sure there are plenty of women around who enjoy suffering and just haven't managed to discover winter climbing yet. For me the rewards and full on intense experiences of a winter climbing day make it all worthwhile. There are also definitely a lot more female winter climbers around compared with when I started.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

I don't know what you lot are talking about. My unscientific survey over a couple on weekends reveals about 30-50% of ice climbers are female here in Canada.

In reply to George Ormerod:

So why's that then? Certainly not the case over here.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Don't know what routes in question were like, but if you've more or less roadside ice routes, that would take away a lot of the issues of long walk ins with heavy kit, possibly allow for shorter days (certainly on the hill, even if it's still a long drive), and there's the possibility the weather, whilst cold, isn't quite as demanding as a Scottish white out. Or, I suppose in short, if you've got access to a winter cragging venue, rather than any climbing being a full on mountaineering day, that might minimise some of the issues suggested above.

The very fact you've seen enough winter climbers close enough up to determine their gender suggests it might be a different kind of venue to most UK winter climbing!

In reply to Murko Fuzz:


chickswithpicks in the US claim to have put over 1,000 women through their winter climbing courses.

It does look much more like a UK thing.