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I'm looking to buy a camcorder to film some climbing with. Sadly online reviews seem very thin on the ground for this kind of product.
Apparently go-pro style action cams are all the rage these days but what I want is a more traditional affair with a decent optical zoom and the ability to muck around with focus/white balance/etc. while shooting.
A brief list of what I want to do would be:
- good image quality
- optical zoom of 20x or more.
- ability to shoot time lapse.
- ability to shoot slow motion.
- ability to vary white balance, focus, exposure during filming.
Additional things like wifi, remote controls and so on are not so important.
HD resolution is enough for me, I don't need ultra HD.
Ideally I'd spend no more than £300-500 but if increasing this a little would lead to a big difference in what results I could expect from the camcorder, I could reconsider.
I was looking at the Panasonic HC-V720. Does anyone have experience of using this Camcorder?
Can anyone who knows a bit about the field recommend on camcorder over the others out there?
(Also, I'm a little confused about the whole slow motion thing... you are going to need 120 or more frames per second real time to enable viewing as slow motion (rather than "slide show") but pretty much everything I looked at seems to film at 60 frames a second and no faster. Is it the case that people these days create extra frames in post processing to enable slow motion or is slow motion just a feature that only very expensive camcorders have?)
Apparently go-pro style action cams are all the rage these days but what I want is a more traditional affair with a decent optical zoom and the ability to muck around with focus/white balance/etc. while shooting.
A brief list of what I want to do would be:
- good image quality
- optical zoom of 20x or more.
- ability to shoot time lapse.
- ability to shoot slow motion.
- ability to vary white balance, focus, exposure during filming.
Additional things like wifi, remote controls and so on are not so important.
HD resolution is enough for me, I don't need ultra HD.
Ideally I'd spend no more than £300-500 but if increasing this a little would lead to a big difference in what results I could expect from the camcorder, I could reconsider.
I was looking at the Panasonic HC-V720. Does anyone have experience of using this Camcorder?
Can anyone who knows a bit about the field recommend on camcorder over the others out there?
(Also, I'm a little confused about the whole slow motion thing... you are going to need 120 or more frames per second real time to enable viewing as slow motion (rather than "slide show") but pretty much everything I looked at seems to film at 60 frames a second and no faster. Is it the case that people these days create extra frames in post processing to enable slow motion or is slow motion just a feature that only very expensive camcorders have?)
In reply to henwardian:
On the subject of slow motion, many common video formats are in 24-30fps or thereabouts so you can get smooth half speed slow motion with 60fps, but you are correct that you will need 120 or more if you want your finished product to be in 60fps.
I'm afraid that I don't know anything about the kind of 'prosumer' video camera that you're looking for. Many amateur video enthusiasts shoot using DSLR still cameras these days as well as the ubiquitous gropro. Many compact still cameras actually have pretty decent video performance as well, I have found Sony particularly good in this regard, but they don't offer the controls that you are after.
On the subject of slow motion, many common video formats are in 24-30fps or thereabouts so you can get smooth half speed slow motion with 60fps, but you are correct that you will need 120 or more if you want your finished product to be in 60fps.
I'm afraid that I don't know anything about the kind of 'prosumer' video camera that you're looking for. Many amateur video enthusiasts shoot using DSLR still cameras these days as well as the ubiquitous gropro. Many compact still cameras actually have pretty decent video performance as well, I have found Sony particularly good in this regard, but they don't offer the controls that you are after.
In reply to Oujmik:
I read an article online somewhere (lost the link) which basically showed that you need 1/4 speed to get a useful noticable slow motion effect and 1/10 speed started to look pretty cool. So I figure that 120fps would be minimum to make it a useable effect, 300fps would be nice but if it meant a lot of extra expense, not necessary.
Yeah, I do have a fairly good compact superzoom thing that does video but it just isn't up to what I want to do (appart from anything else, it fills a memory card in a couple of minutes and eats the battery in no time flat), lacking functionality as you say.
> On the subject of slow motion, many common video formats are in 24-30fps or thereabouts so you can get smooth half speed slow motion with 60fps, but you are correct that you will need 120 or more if you want your finished product to be in 60fps.
I read an article online somewhere (lost the link) which basically showed that you need 1/4 speed to get a useful noticable slow motion effect and 1/10 speed started to look pretty cool. So I figure that 120fps would be minimum to make it a useable effect, 300fps would be nice but if it meant a lot of extra expense, not necessary.
> I'm afraid that I don't know anything about the kind of 'prosumer' video camera that you're looking for. Many amateur video enthusiasts shoot using DSLR still cameras these days as well as the ubiquitous gropro. Many compact still cameras actually have pretty decent video performance as well, I have found Sony particularly good in this regard, but they don't offer the controls that you are after.
Yeah, I do have a fairly good compact superzoom thing that does video but it just isn't up to what I want to do (appart from anything else, it fills a memory card in a couple of minutes and eats the battery in no time flat), lacking functionality as you say.
In reply to henwardian:
My standard recomendation is the BMPCC. Mobile phone sized with cinematic quality and a copy of Resolve chucked in!
For SlowMo I use Twixter
Check out YouTube for samples of both.
My standard recomendation is the BMPCC. Mobile phone sized with cinematic quality and a copy of Resolve chucked in!
For SlowMo I use Twixter
Check out YouTube for samples of both.
Post edited at 09:23
In reply to Indy:
but at £560 for the camera, atleast one lens, memory cards, batteries (20mins recording?) and a decent PC/laptop to edit, it is quite an expensive option though
gopro's are good for what they do, but not so useful for "further away" views as there's no zoom, you can change the field of view which may be useful.
can't help you any further with that model camcorder Henward, sorry.
but at £560 for the camera, atleast one lens, memory cards, batteries (20mins recording?) and a decent PC/laptop to edit, it is quite an expensive option though
gopro's are good for what they do, but not so useful for "further away" views as there's no zoom, you can change the field of view which may be useful.
can't help you any further with that model camcorder Henward, sorry.
In reply to Indy:
The Pocket Camera comes with Resolve Lite, which is already free to download on the Internet!
Ignoring that, I'd also have to recommend the BMPCC. Takes Nikon EN-EL20 batteries and MFT lenses. Miles better than any DSLR is going to manage, and very compact (although the compactness works against it when it comes to actually shooting with it). The BMCC is also very nice, but it's a good 2kg solid chunky box, and needs an external power solution to be at all useful; the on-bard battery is internal and is really only intended as a sort of UPS solution rather than for actual constant camera power.
> My standard recomendation is the BMPCC. Mobile phone sized with cinematic quality and a copy of Resolve chucked in!
The Pocket Camera comes with Resolve Lite, which is already free to download on the Internet!
Ignoring that, I'd also have to recommend the BMPCC. Takes Nikon EN-EL20 batteries and MFT lenses. Miles better than any DSLR is going to manage, and very compact (although the compactness works against it when it comes to actually shooting with it). The BMCC is also very nice, but it's a good 2kg solid chunky box, and needs an external power solution to be at all useful; the on-bard battery is internal and is really only intended as a sort of UPS solution rather than for actual constant camera power.
This Black Magic thing looks pretty cool. I have never heard of it before but if both Indy and Mark both recommend that, I guess it has to be good!
They make a lot out of the tiny size of it in their advertising. It has been my experience with still shooting camera equipment that generally there is a good correlation between bulk/weight and result quality. Does the Black Magic really not suffer adversely for being so small?
Have you both used this camera to make films? Did you put any of them online on youtube or vimeo or anywhere?
In reply to Indy:
I had never heard of Twixtor. I'm really impressed by what can be achieved with it! There are indeed quite a few youtube videos showing what it can do (and what its limitations are).
They make a lot out of the tiny size of it in their advertising. It has been my experience with still shooting camera equipment that generally there is a good correlation between bulk/weight and result quality. Does the Black Magic really not suffer adversely for being so small?
Have you both used this camera to make films? Did you put any of them online on youtube or vimeo or anywhere?
In reply to Indy:
> For SlowMo I use Twixter
I had never heard of Twixtor. I'm really impressed by what can be achieved with it! There are indeed quite a few youtube videos showing what it can do (and what its limitations are).
In reply to henwardian:
Hi Henward
I've got a Panasonic HC-V700 and HC-V720 and have used them both on my short videos for the last year or 2. Both fill the criteria you are looking for very well, but be warned if you want to buy a spare battery for the 720 you cannot get a cheap compatible (compatibles are available for the 700) and have to pay the full whack of around £90 for a VWT360!
A couple of examples of both camcorders in action (along with a small amount of gopro) from the Alps in the summer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygToEMgjMYU&list=UUkVKguHnrqXx5lAmviy2U8g
..and Pembroke a couple of months ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaypcRZiOug&list=UUkVKguHnrqXx5lAmviy2U8g&i...
Hope this is of some use!
Dave
Hi Henward
I've got a Panasonic HC-V700 and HC-V720 and have used them both on my short videos for the last year or 2. Both fill the criteria you are looking for very well, but be warned if you want to buy a spare battery for the 720 you cannot get a cheap compatible (compatibles are available for the 700) and have to pay the full whack of around £90 for a VWT360!
A couple of examples of both camcorders in action (along with a small amount of gopro) from the Alps in the summer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygToEMgjMYU&list=UUkVKguHnrqXx5lAmviy2U8g
..and Pembroke a couple of months ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaypcRZiOug&list=UUkVKguHnrqXx5lAmviy2U8g&i...
Hope this is of some use!
Dave
Post edited at 13:09
In reply to BALD EAGLE:
with BE's advice in mind, the newer version...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field...
...does 1080p at 100fps although you'll definitely want to buy a very fast memory card for that (lexar 600x SD 64gb are under £45 for example)! and certainly using amazon, the 750 is actually cheaper than the 720.
with BE's advice in mind, the newer version...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field...
...does 1080p at 100fps although you'll definitely want to buy a very fast memory card for that (lexar 600x SD 64gb are under £45 for example)! and certainly using amazon, the 750 is actually cheaper than the 720.
In reply to henwardian:
The BMPCC really is a game changer..... just take a look at the footage on YouTube and Vimeo!
Beware about people moaning about this or that as most of it isn't a real problem.
Yes the included battery doesn't give that much 'ON' time but there are plenty of external battery packs about which for about £50 will give around 8 to 10 hours useage.
Many whinge about only getting 20 minutes of footage on a card but there is no point what so ever in using RAW for 99.9% of people. SO looking on BM's list of approved cards you can get a 128gb card for £50 (Amazon.co.uk) which will get you about 1hr 45 minutes of shooting time.
The only genuine issue I can see is that most will need to invest in at least 1 lens which aren't cheap. My favorite lens is the Voigtlander 17.5 0.95 but at around £750 isn't cheap or particuarly versitile. I think Panasonic do a 17-35 for a few hundred but can't vouch for its quality.
Mine is used for family stuff so nothing on YouTube etc. Its nice to have good quality stuff of the kids especially for the future.
The BMPCC really is a game changer..... just take a look at the footage on YouTube and Vimeo!
Beware about people moaning about this or that as most of it isn't a real problem.
Yes the included battery doesn't give that much 'ON' time but there are plenty of external battery packs about which for about £50 will give around 8 to 10 hours useage.
Many whinge about only getting 20 minutes of footage on a card but there is no point what so ever in using RAW for 99.9% of people. SO looking on BM's list of approved cards you can get a 128gb card for £50 (Amazon.co.uk) which will get you about 1hr 45 minutes of shooting time.
The only genuine issue I can see is that most will need to invest in at least 1 lens which aren't cheap. My favorite lens is the Voigtlander 17.5 0.95 but at around £750 isn't cheap or particuarly versitile. I think Panasonic do a 17-35 for a few hundred but can't vouch for its quality.
Mine is used for family stuff so nothing on YouTube etc. Its nice to have good quality stuff of the kids especially for the future.
In reply to Indy:
Indy, i don't disagree with anything you've said... the BMPCC is many wonderful things, but being realistic it's £750+ to make it a useable beastie for most people
Indy, i don't disagree with anything you've said... the BMPCC is many wonderful things, but being realistic it's £750+ to make it a useable beastie for most people
In reply to henwardian:
It certainly doesn't suffer technically, but the size and form factor can make it difficult to shoot with; you're probably going to want to rig it on some form of shoulder rig at the very least or you'll end up with some very wobbly footage. The S16 sensor size of BMPCC is also a challenge if you're looking for wide shots; the crop factor is huge. Affordable wide lenses do exist though, and you can also use a Speedbooster to reduce the crop factor, let more light in, and use stills lenses that you might already own.
I'm using the BMCC at the minute to shoot a TV pilot, but we're talking properly rigged and on a tripod for pretty much every shot. Also have a BMPCC kicking about that might see some use as a compact B cam, but so far it hasn't seen any use. The results are stunning, especially for the price of the camera, but if you shot in raw and log ('film' mode) you need to be prepared to do a lot of grading work in post to get usable footage out of the other end. Shoot in Prores and 'video' mode and you'll get beautiful looking video without much work at all.
> They make a lot out of the tiny size of it in their advertising. It has been my experience with still shooting camera equipment that generally there is a good correlation between bulk/weight and result quality. Does the Black Magic really not suffer adversely for being so small?
It certainly doesn't suffer technically, but the size and form factor can make it difficult to shoot with; you're probably going to want to rig it on some form of shoulder rig at the very least or you'll end up with some very wobbly footage. The S16 sensor size of BMPCC is also a challenge if you're looking for wide shots; the crop factor is huge. Affordable wide lenses do exist though, and you can also use a Speedbooster to reduce the crop factor, let more light in, and use stills lenses that you might already own.
I'm using the BMCC at the minute to shoot a TV pilot, but we're talking properly rigged and on a tripod for pretty much every shot. Also have a BMPCC kicking about that might see some use as a compact B cam, but so far it hasn't seen any use. The results are stunning, especially for the price of the camera, but if you shot in raw and log ('film' mode) you need to be prepared to do a lot of grading work in post to get usable footage out of the other end. Shoot in Prores and 'video' mode and you'll get beautiful looking video without much work at all.
In reply to rallymania:
What else are you looking at and what would the costs/cons be? Quality lenes hold there value remarkably well.
Pro kit is good but heavy and very expensive.
Consumer vid camera just doesn't give the image quality
SLR's are ok if a bit heavy and bulky from mid-range up but your still having to buy a quality lens.
What else are you looking at and what would the costs/cons be? Quality lenes hold there value remarkably well.
Pro kit is good but heavy and very expensive.
Consumer vid camera just doesn't give the image quality
SLR's are ok if a bit heavy and bulky from mid-range up but your still having to buy a quality lens.
Post edited at 18:56
In reply to tehmarks and Indy:
I've had a look at footage from the BMPCC online and it is incredible. While I'm sure what I shoot will pretty tenth rate by comparison to someone whose job it probably is to film things, it still makes it extremely difficult to turn down. I think I just have to shell out the extra mulla and hope my clumsy premiere foray into movie making is made a little more pretty by the expensive equipment!
I've had a look at footage from the BMPCC online and it is incredible. While I'm sure what I shoot will pretty tenth rate by comparison to someone whose job it probably is to film things, it still makes it extremely difficult to turn down. I think I just have to shell out the extra mulla and hope my clumsy premiere foray into movie making is made a little more pretty by the expensive equipment!
In reply to henwardian:
Have thought of getting a decent video recorder to complement the go pro, have Nikon cameras and lenses (Nikon D200 so no video) but the BMPCC does look very good, let me know how the foray into video works out.
Have thought of getting a decent video recorder to complement the go pro, have Nikon cameras and lenses (Nikon D200 so no video) but the BMPCC does look very good, let me know how the foray into video works out.
In reply to henwardian:
If you can spend up to £500 get a RX100 M3 -
f1.8/24mm lens
24/25/50fps @ 1080p
120fps slo-mo (albeit at 720p)
Time lapse Apps in camera which work really well (similar to Magic Lantern)
It's tiny so you're more likely to bring it out to the crag with you (a big plus if you're an amateur where climbing comes first)
I haven't done much with it so far but what I have used it for I've been really impressed with.
It also takes pictures I hear.
negatives being -
It'll only record for up to 30mins/4GB as per all other stills based cameras, video cameras will always have this over on them.
It's not a DSLR
Sometimes it feels too small, like you can't a grip of it, so I bought a grip, and gripped it
good luck to you and happy filming!
If you can spend up to £500 get a RX100 M3 -
f1.8/24mm lens
24/25/50fps @ 1080p
120fps slo-mo (albeit at 720p)
Time lapse Apps in camera which work really well (similar to Magic Lantern)
It's tiny so you're more likely to bring it out to the crag with you (a big plus if you're an amateur where climbing comes first)
I haven't done much with it so far but what I have used it for I've been really impressed with.
It also takes pictures I hear.
negatives being -
It'll only record for up to 30mins/4GB as per all other stills based cameras, video cameras will always have this over on them.
It's not a DSLR
Sometimes it feels too small, like you can't a grip of it, so I bought a grip, and gripped it
good luck to you and happy filming!
In reply to henwardian:
I sent you an email last night, on the off chance you do decide on the BMPCC I'm possibly looking to get rid of mine as it's just gathering dust currently.
I sent you an email last night, on the off chance you do decide on the BMPCC I'm possibly looking to get rid of mine as it's just gathering dust currently.
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