UKH

Hi all, I've been walking for a couple of years and inevitably got into scrambling as its far more exciting that plain old walking. Done a few grade 1s, jacks rake lakes, triffan snowdonia, planning on sharp edge, crib goch etc. However im looking at progressing to grade 2 and 3 stuff as it opens a lot of doors and it something to push my boundaries a bit more. Im fairly confident with my skill near the floor eg bouldering however the extra exposure of grade 2 and 3 does unsettle me somewhat.
So im looking at doing some indoor climbing lessons to learn how to rope up and use different equipment. I am aware that out in the hills its different and thats where im lookng for advice. My initial questions are what basic essentials do i need? what rope, length/thickness? Also should i go for cams or nuts? Leaning towards nuts as they're a considerable amount cheeper. What sizes would be sensible if I dont want to spend a bomb on a full set? What other equipment for abseiling if we need to get down fairly quickly? I already have a harness amde by singing rock, seem to be suitable for what im planning on doing? Also any other advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

In reply to bricknall:

There is very little which can be considered 'essential' for scrambling. If you are thinking of bringing ropes/gear though, then take plenty slings as well.

In reply to bricknall: get in contact with a local MIA and get out scrambling with them - they will tailor a day/half day of teaching you things that you will need and use, a local wall is just going to teach you to climb at a local wall I'm afraid.

In reply to bricknall:

Join a local climbing mountaineering club. Hopefully you'll get all the instruction and advice you need for free without having to spend any money on a pile of gear until you want/need to.

In reply to alooker:

Also, watch out for trainee MIAs, often on the forums, offering to take people out for their logbook experience.

In reply to bricknall:

The BMC have recently produced a series of videos on scrambling rope work techniques, definitely worth a google. I was once just a walker in a similar position of experience to you, I did 2 days of scrambling/mountaineering with a guide and it was definitely worth the money.

As for gear, its all subjective to the route and experience on the person scrambling. Some say absolutely no gear, some take far too much. I'm probably towards the latter.

My scrambling gear for grade 3's include: odd numbered nuts 1 - 9, 5 sling draws, 3x120cm slings and 1x 240 sling, 3 hexes, and a couple of screwgates. That's the most I would take, you can probably halve that really. Rope wise I take a 30m half rope, although some would say a single is more appropriate.

The main thing to note is that there's no point taking gear if you don't know how to use it. And no matter how much or little gear you take, they'll always be someone doing it differently to you, it's all a compromise of speed vs safety and what you are comfortable with.

In reply to bricknall:

I don't mean to sound harsh, but the way you ask those questions is a bit scary. You need to get someone to show you how to do it, and then it will become obvious what kit you need... going for the kit first and skills later is a good way to end up a statistic.

If I were you and I were paying for lessons, I'd only go outside, and get targeted lessons on what you need to know. Indoors-outdoors is not that transferable. Personally I think the ropework side of scrambling (efficiently) is a good deal harder than pitched rock climbing.

Cheers people, lots to take into consideration. I wasnt planning on just getting the kit and heading straight up to high grade scrambles, mabe spend a few days practicing on easy stuff, probably not even scrambles, just to get used to the kit after watching videos and researching. I agree paying for someone to teach me is the best idea however things are tight at the moment hence I wanted to spend the little cash on gear. Learn the basics first on easy ground then move on from there. Ill keep my eyes peeled for MIAs, seems like a sensible place to start.

In reply to bricknall:

A day or two out with a mountaineering instructor (like myself!) would teach you a lot whilst being out on great routes.

In reply to jezb1:
Get out with Jez. He's good and you'd learn loads over 2 days. I'd highly recommend him.

I would love to spend a day or two out with someone in the know. I'll have to save some money up to fund it but it seems the best way to go about things. Cheers for the advice!

In reply to bricknall:
I was in a similar position to you a couple of years ago. I had been hill walking for about 8 months and had done most of the classic grade one scrambles in England and Wales. I wanted to have ago at the grade 3's. Routes like the Cneifion Arete in North Wales looked beyond my abilities and looked terrifying.
so I booked an introduction to climbing course at the local indoor wall. They showed me how to tie-in , belay and some basic climbing skills, but it did not teach the fundamental skills of placing gear to protect a pitch or setting up belays and rope work.
So I joined my local mountaineering club who took me out climbing. After having a go at seconding about 10 routes I decided to have a go at leading, while getting a rack together.

Climbing had taken over my life during the spring and summer months. I mostly go scrambling in the autumn/winter when the weather is not so good for climbing.

I found with the confidence gained rock climbing I could have a go at most grade 3 scrambles without a rope/gear, but would still recommend the use of protection if you are unsure of any difficult or exposed move on a route.

I would be a good idea to learn the basic skills before buying any kit beyond a harness and helmet

The best way to learn other than a course/instructor is the club route, Joining a climbing club has been a great experience , I can't recommend it enough.

Good luck.

In reply to bricknall:

As others have said join a club, even if you don't want to become a 'climber' many clubs will have a couple of hill walking/scrambling types who are likely to show you the scrambling ropes, you might have to buy them a couple of beers in the evening though.

In reply to bricknall:

Slings
Aux cord
Screwlocks you don't mind leaving up the top
I generally don't ab from nuts or any placed gear. Meaning i find somewhere else. Its the great outdoors, there is always somewhere else
And have fun

A cool abseil for the price of leaving a £6 karb and some cord at the top is well worth it in my eyes.

In reply to bricknall:

I would acquire a rope (short ish as you can only do short pitches generally) a load of slings and a set of hexes, couple of nuts, screwgates.

Main issue is that you need a partner, whether you go for an instructor or not...

In reply to zimpara:


It just may not be where you are!

Being able to rely on your gear really is the bread and butter of mountaineering...

In reply to stubbed:


Dang, and I've been scrambling on my own for years!


For the OP I'd suggest the instructor (or experienced friend) before the gear.

In reply to zimpara:

Im going to follow you around waiting for you to do a 'cool' abseil... i'll have a new rack in no time! sheeesh!!

In reply to bricknall:

For most scrambling, certainly up to grade 3, I wouldn't normally bother with taking gear, it's just a load of added weight you don't need on your back. and placing gear will slow you down a lot. As others have said, you also need to know how to use it all properly. The only thing I always take is a helmet, you might think you look daft but who cares about that.

The most essential item is going to be a guide book or a topo from somewhere. Scrambling often involves tricky route finding, even on easy routes it's very easy to get lost or drift off-route onto something much more serious. Just look at how many people get rescued from the North ridge of Tryfan each year...

I reckon the best approach is to just get out there and work your way through the grades. If you're not too confident with exposure then start by selecting some grade 1 routes which are easy but have stacks of exposure.

I also would say that a partner is not essential, not everyone is up for it but if you fancy it there's definitely an extra bit of satisfaction to be had from doing it all yourself. I've been happy to wander up Curved Ridge on my own, I really appreciate being able to stick to my own pace.


Stephen

In reply to bricknall:
if your going to get into rope work I'd recommend going full on and getting formal training. its depressingly easy to build a poor belay. and given exposure nerves walking boots and wet rock very possible to fall.

If scrambling for yourself and similar experienced mates just do it you have many many great adventures before u need a rope

however. back on topic. 1,3,5,7,9,11 nuts 3 big hex. 3 120cm slings 1 240cm sling. harness

In reply to bricknall:
The bare minimum equipment for scrambling is probably that which is suggested to carry for a ML. This is a 30m 8-9mm half rope, 3 carabiners, 4 slings. The technique is described in 'Ascending a steep step' and 'Direct belaying' sections of Mountain Skills Training Handbook by Pete Hill & Stuart Jonhston.

The terrain should be safe enough that the leader will not fall, as there will be no-one to belay the leader! Similarly the terrain must not be steep enough that a second can fall more than 30cm, as the rope will dig in and hurt like hell otherwise.
Technique is essentially leader soloes to a stance (rope tied around waist with either backed-up bowline, or the adjustable knot suggested in 'Ascending a steep step' section, knot should be snug and not able to be pulled past waist - same for the second) , and slings a flake (sling should be knotted such that it sits tightly on the flake), and then clips on to the anchor sling with another sling (if necessary), and then clips another HMS onto the anchor sling to begin belaying with an Italian hitch. Second is belayed up (rope with as little slack as possible, as a fall would hurt) and then arrives, and clips to anchor sling with their cowstail. Rope is reflaked, leader unclips themself and belay karabiner and ascends again.

It cannot be emphasized enough that this bare minimum of equipment is not suitable for sustained or dangerous pitches where a fall is quite possible (a fall would hurt like hell with just a single small rope around waist). The purpose of the rope is to make sure the second cannot slide all the way down a slab, not to hold them in mid-air.

In reply to SenzuBean:
When does a scramble become a climb?

Seriously, though, if you need nuts and hexes, as suggested by others on this thread, it isn't really a scramble and if you can climb it with minimal gear and a body belay (and the leader can solo it) then you're probably better of just calling it a boulder and sending it.

... unless you're taking up someone who really needs a belay in which case you do whatever makes them comfortable.

I agree with steveq above. Route-finding is almost certainly the hardest part of scrambling - if you're off route, you are almost guaranteed to be on terrain more dangerous than the route itself and, if you are on-route and aren't confident of that fact, you're likely to make doubt-inflicted mistakes and poor decisions.

If you want to learn technical rope-work or traditional climbing, just do it! If you want to play with climbing pro., go climbing.

I think that everyone scrambling on the upper edge should get some proper trad. experience anyway. Even if you leave the rack behind and opt to scramble instead, that experience will help you judge when you should admit defeat and back down from an unprotected scramble.

In reply to Xharlie:

Pretty much agree with you - but I think there is scope for when the second is unlikely to need to be belayed, but some safety backup is probably a good idea just in case. Rather than carry a full rack, it might be safer (given the terrain), to carry less and move more swiftly (which is another kind of safety). Just need to use judgement as to what is 'safe' and best

In reply to SenzuBean:


The bare minimum equipment for scrambling is clearly nothing but what you're wearing. Not necessary a recommendation for the OP, but simple fact!


And since when has all that been standard ML equipment? It was just the rope when I did it, with the addition of a single sling and krab for Winter ML.

In reply to petestack:


The BARE minimum would be less than that!

In reply to climbwhenready:

If you're really wearing nothing, then yes. But that's already covered by 'nothing but what you're wearing', which could be nothing!

In reply to petestack:

Sorry I should have qualified I meant the bare minimum to protect a scramble.

You're right - only the rope is strictly necessary - but then you're rubbing your rope over a random flake - something I would not risk at all if I could prevent it. The ML basics is really for unplanned emergencies - having a few more bits at least lets it become more of a planned activity.

In reply to Xharlie:


To me probably when I take any kind of rack with any kind of intention of using it. So, sure, some regard ropes and light racks as scrambling equipment, but scrambling to me implies the joy (or otherwise!) of moving freely and unfettered over moderate but sometimes seriously consequential terrain. Though I'd also concede the existence of 'mountaineering' routes that are really neither scramble nor climb...

In reply to SenzuBean:


Perhaps if you're executing some 'random' (ie thoughtless) direct belay, but sensible use of your rope isn't going to kill it just like that.


Of course, but the ML (while covering some useful techniques) is not actually a 'scrambling' remit at all. And the last time I got out a rope and used it on a scramble was several years ago to belay some friends following up a streaming crux slab on Ledge Route (note no random flakes involved!).

In reply to petestack:

I meant random flake as in without having done the route or knowing the area quite well, it's not easy to say what kind of flakes you'll find up there when you need one. They might be sharp and/or chossy. A perfectly smooth one exactly where you wanted it would be great though

In reply to bricknall:

Hi, I am currently consolodating experience between my MIA training and going for assessment and I am looking for people in exactly your position to take scrambling in Snowdonia etc.

Obviously I do not charge because I am not qualified or insured but I am a competent and experienced moutaineer.

If you would like to chat and discuss options, please get in touch

Dave

Ps. I am in Wales all weekend so I may not return e-mails till Monday