UKH

Hi All,

Seeking some advice on finding "my type" of mountain fun in the Alps.

For the past 2/3 years I have found my true calling in the mountains: Scrambling. Have previously enjoyed Buchaille Etive mor, East face of Tryfan, Aonach Eagach Ridge. On my ticklist is everything from liathach in torridon, bristly ridge in Ogwen Valley, north face of Bidean Nam Bian in Glencoe.

The great thing about all these is the "big mountain" exposure ALONGSIDE all being possible in 1 day from your car, given the time to get yourself to the area. This saves a lot of logistical and monetary commitment. I feel comfortable with this and want to continue it outside the UK- however the focus in the alps tends to be on much more serious and committing projects.

Driving between Grenoble and Gap you have the huge "Parc national de ecrins" on the east and some smaller, but for me just as intriguing mountains on the west side. I suppose guidebook recommendations are what I'm looking for but general advice much appreciated too.

I am also interested in Bavaria, but that area seems to go from flat to very big... call me a wimp but I do still want to get onto the top of something and back to my van in a day!

Cheers

Malcolm

In reply to: malcolm.harris


The Dévoluy range is west of the Ecrins, and further west you have the Vercors which are fantastic for day hikes/scrambles (did one yesterday as I live halfway between Grenoble and Gap, but in the Col de la Croix Haute direction, and the weather is unseasonably warm at the moment).

I don't really have any guidebook recommendations (the area gets a lot less attention than the more obvious areas), just a few IGN maps and the internet. Just did a quick Google and found this guy which might give you a rough idea.

https://wordsonamountain.wordpress.com/tag/scrambling/

The Grand Moucherotte (not Moucherolle) is magnificent (have done a couple of ultra marathons round there - and watching the sun rise over the Oisans, while looking up the valley above Grenoble and seeing Mont Blanc illuminated in pink 100 miles away is quite a siight).

The main towns of the Vercors such as Autrans, Villard des Lans, Lans-en-Vercors and Meudre all have great tourist info centres who I'm sure could help point you in the right direction too.

In reply to yorkshireman:

thanks very much mate- that's good info!

Yes it is slightly off the beaten track somewhat, but I am really looking for somewhere that I can return to year on year and really build up an in depth knowledge of- so what you've mentioned sounds completely brilliant!

The trouble is getting familiar in the first place without guidebooks etc... but from that blog it definitely looks worth exploring and I've got right names to search for at least!

If you live around there can I ask what you get up to in Feb/March? Is it just skiing, mountaineering etc or is there trekking/ running routes by that point in the less severe areas?

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In reply to malcolm.harris:

Can't help you with the alps I'm afraid, but I'd be interested in the outcome. I also enjoy the type of routes you describe - basically easy, single day, non-winter mountaineering. Yes, it's a soft option compared to climbing E5 or big alpine peaks, but it is great fun, very cheap and easy to fit in around other stuff.

You've obviously already discovered Wales and Scotland, I'd recommend getting some basic rock climbing skills if you haven't already as this really helps open up more great routes such as Cneifion Arete and other routes with a touch of climbing.

I'd also whole-heartedly recommend you visit the Dolomites if you get a chance as the Via Ferrata there combines all the things you enjoy about scrambling but with a twist.

In reply to malcolm.harris:


Yeah its mainly various varieties of skiing/snowboarding - running high up is difficult until about April/May since even if some of the mountain tops are blown clear of snow, some of the deeper more sheltered forested valleys keep the snow and make access harder. Of course it all varies depending on local conditions

In reply to malcolm.harris:

How good is your French? Start with Les Nouvelles Randonnees du Vertige, sentier aeriens over most of the alps but with many in that area including the wall of the Vercors. Some really quite scary routes, some vf of course. By Pascal Sombardier, publisher Glenat who have many other similar guides. Diagrams and photos so you should only need basic French. For walks and scrambles in your area, Autour de Gap has some entertaining routes, author Lucien Fressard, publisher Edisud. For some big stuff, 3000 Sans Frontiere Alpes du Sud, 110 Summit routes in the Mercantour, Ubaye, Queyras etc of peaks over 3000m, up at AD grade. Editions Gap. From bookshops in Grenoble or Gap, presumably also from main gear shops like Au Vieux Campeur by post. But you can make up your own routes. I remember nipping up the Balcon de Belledonne north of Grenoble, just under 3000m mini snow peak in running shorts with an axe. Lots of scrambly little rock peaks around 2,500m around Lake Annecy. Have fun!

In reply to malcolm.harris:

Go down to Toulon + Marseille and do wonderful _seaside_ scrambling routes.

Many are south-facing -- too hot in summer.
In winter you do have to be thoughtful about wind -- especially if doing routes right at the edge of the water, rather than 50 meters above.

I've put several route descriptions in English on camptocamp.org

Ken

P.S. Another idea on a warm day in a big snow year with crevasses well blocked is to do the approach on skis and scramble to a summit on rock. A wonderful outing is the normal route on the Aiguille du Tour, approaching by skis from the Grands Montets lift, crossing Col du Passon and Glacier du Tour. Then after the rock summit descend on skis to Le Tour (or farther to Trient, Switzerland).
Next big snow year I'm thinking of using skis to approach the rock ridge of the Aig d'Entreves.

The ideas suggested above of Glenat guidebooks are good. The ideas of Via Ferrata in Italy are good (the French ones tend to be steeper and have too much steel fixtures -- though I found myself enjoying them anyway). VF Roc du Vent in the Beaufortain is a fun outing.

Have to get lots of French-language guidebooks. Have to get outside of Chamonix and talk to French climbers -- turns out many of them love scrambling also, and can make helpful suggestions.

Some of my favorites:
. . (outside of seaside)
* traverse Aretes du Gerbier (Vercors)
* traverse Aiguille de la Vanoise.
* traverse Aig Crochues + ascend Aig Belvedere (Aigs Rouges)
* Pointe Percee by Cheminees de Sallanche (but starting approach from W side : Col des Anes)

but there's lots and lots more -- a lifetime of climbing. For example the guidebook for the Belledonne is full of ideas.

Many of the English-language descriptions of scrambles on CampToCamp.org were written by me. And I believe that many of mine are improvements over the French descriptions.

Unfortunately I have not had time to write one for the wonderful traverse of the Aig de la Vanoise. Sometimes I add English-language reports to the French descriptions.

If you find the Alps too crowded in August, some of us are working on scrambles in the Eastside Sierra region of California USA. There are discussion threads on the Northern California forum of MountainProject.com

Ken

In reply to malcolm.harris:

Mont Aiguille, Vercors - superb day out: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/mont-aiguille/106688025

In reply to markk:

That looks great.

In reply to markk:

So glad you mentioned this, my favourite mountain as a kid (I used to live nearby and we had frequent school trips in the nearby village of Chichilianne, nostalgia...). Often suggested as the birthplace of Alpinism !

It has some great easy routes, but I guess this could qualify as a bit more than scrambling. Camping on top his a great idea, the whole top is basically a huge flat grassy campsite with a hell of a view !

In reply to malcolm.harris:

The new "Via Ferratas of the French Alps" (Cicerone Guide) is good a covers from Geneva down to the Ecrins

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1852846488

I've yet to actually use it rather than browse, but seems a very useful overview

Regards,

Peter

In reply to RomTheBear:


I pass it very often, living half an hour south - the whole Trieves area is a lovely spot, and often gets better weather than us. It's so distinctive and really stands out. I found out there's a trail race around it next June which I'm going to do although details on the route are a bit sketchy, although apparently its being going for years (Le Ronde du Mont Aiguille)

In reply to PeterBlackler:

Looks like a typical old-fashioned guidebook: no mention of GPS lat long coordinates. Which I find really useful for finding the start of VF routes,
Also the French-language guidebooks have like twice as many routes.

The Amazon description for this book says the French VF routes are more like scrambling than the old Italian routes. Actually the French VF routes are generally _less_ like scrambling (more like easy gym climbing routes?)

The important things that a rock climber/scrambler needs to know about a VF route: (a) Does it allow making moves with hands and feet directly on the rock (as opposed to on the steel fixtures), (b) how to find the start; (c) how to get down from the top.
For details on that for selected routes, try the info with GPS points (sometimes GPS tracks) linked from this page:
http://roberts-1.com/c/v/e/#via_ferrata_climbs

For the NE Italy-Dolomites and for the excellent new VF routes in Austria, get the German-language _modern_ guidebooks from bergsteigen.at

Ken

Some fun routes in southeast France ...
Rocher de Roquebrune (non-seaside)

An expected area for seaside routes is _outside_ the Calanques limestone ...
Cap Canaille and especially around the Bec de l'Aigle by La Ciotat,
on sandstone and puddingstone.

For links to detailed English-language route descriptions, see on this page:
http://roberts-1.com/c/v/e/#English_language_for_France

There is (yet another) Glenat "coffee table" photo guidebook for this area (by Pierre Millon), but though the photos are enticing, several of the route descriptions are out of date. Can use it as an idea book, but check for more recent descriptions and reports on the web or other guidebooks.

Ken

In reply to James Rushforth:

...and I can recommend James's guide, I love the photo topos for the VFs - pretty redundant for navigation given that you a following a cable, but great for helping you decide which ones you fancy in the first place, very inspiring.

In reply to James Rushforth:

I have heard it said that French VFs are like sport climbing, Italian and specifically Dolomite ones are like trad - the equipment in France is perfect and well though out, but the lines are totally arbitrary, new and are just there for the sake of it, in Italy the fixed gear can be dodgy but the situation is very atmospheric and the routes actually go somewhere or have some sort of history.

In reply to Oujmik:

Thanks very much, very kind.

In reply to Simon4:

I've not done many French VF's but the ones I have done have been a bit contrived but with excellent gear, more like rock assault courses. Great fun though mind.

The Dolomites routes are generally very historic but as you say with slightly less new equipment. This is been addressed however and these last few years many of the routes have been re-equipped - Punta Eterna, Piz da Lech and Oskar Schuster have recently been done. There are also some new routes springing up done in more of a French style - Ski Club 18 and Magnifici Quattro spring to mind.

Austria also has many great VF's...

In reply to James Rushforth:

That much seems accurate.

Myself I've done lots of French VF routes as well as lots of Italian.

The key difference (highly relevant to this topic of rock scrambling) is that NE Italy via ferrata routes typically _allow_ lots of moves with both feet and hands in direct contact with the rock, using the steel cable only for protection in case of a fall. (though 95% of VF climbers put their hands on the cable for "aid" instead of the rock anyway).

So in this sence VF Sci Club 18 at Faloria is 99% an "Italian" style VF, because it allows lots of (fun interesting) moves on rock.

Most VF routes in France in most cases place the metal fixtures to _obstruct_ putting hands and feet directly on the rock.

So for NE Italy style VF, we can have a sensible conversation about the quality and difficulty of the _free_ climbing moves (done without grabbing the cable for aid or standing on metal rungs). There has been a UKclimbing thread about this. Like this August at last I was able to climb VF Cesco Tomaselli all "free", but I know I will never climb Sci Club 18 all free (because on some sections the rock holds are too small and slopy for me).

One example of a route in France which escapes these categories is Les Perrons at Venosc + Les Deux Alpes, because its metal rungs are small enough so that there's space for moves with feet and hands directly on the rock. And lots of the free rock sequences are very fun (but don't fall, unless using a special Skylotec VF device).

Ken

In reply to kenr:

Great- will check out those route descriptions. Had previously discriminated further south in winter due to chance of rain, do I had started looking at snowshoeing routes further north. However will definitely be bringing my climbing gear now! Must get a roof rack.... Thanks do much!

In reply to altirando:

French non-existent I'm afraid. Looks like I will be learning 'guide book' French! My partner can speak it, and she'll tag along but doesn't know English jargon nevermind French! Thanks though- I will look up all those names, I'm not afraid of buying a book I may not use! (unlike gear) Thanks

In reply to Oujmik:

Yeah I climb so cneifon arete definitely on ticklist. As is cuillin of course! Would happily stay in UK if I had more time or could depend more on weather.

With dolomites, VF has never really appealed because (happy for this to be proven a misconception) it doesn't sound like a 'wilderness' experi