UKH

A quick 30 minute stroll this evening in light rain = wet thighs and shoulders

This was in brand new Velez adventure smock and trousers.....

Not impressed ......

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

Clearly somerthing wrong. Send it back to them for checking.

Sounds like a one off, because I've just come back from 8 days hillwalking in Wales with lots of heavy rain and my Paramo jacket behaved perfectly...... Leggings were TNF Gortex and they also were waterproof.

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

I've always found my paramo jacket great, but the trousers have leaked. I wonder if they have quality control problems?

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

Same as my experience.

Posted my experience of Paramo in the recent overated gear topic. (my comment made 9 Oct)
www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=599898&v=1#x7900699

Contact retailer as soon as possible and try to get them to change it. (Refund if in doubt) Paramo seems to be a marmite piece of gear. Sending mine back to Paramo did not resolve the issue.

Gear is personal and Paramo have more lovers than haters but to me, it was a liability in the mountains.

In reply to Prof. Outdoors:

At least I didn't pay for them ..... Issued by work......

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:
My experience would mean that if my work issued Paramo I'd change jobs!!!!!!!!

In reply to Prof. Outdoors:

We get Montane kit as well so not all bad......!

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

That shouldn't happen. My climbing partner who has been using Paramo trs for about 20 years bought some new ones last year and had a similar experience. After sales was v good. Take them back if they are letting water through; if they are just getting wet on the outside but it's not penetrating to you on the inside, that's normal.

In reply to Solaris:

I would say wetting out is not normal on the First day of use though.
Plus I would add
I loved Paramo 10-5 years ago with the Valez Smock and Cascada Pants. Great winter kit and truley waterproof.

But the lighter weight Paramo jacket ive since purchased and used has not been that waterproof and has let dampness in around the shoulders.

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:
As others have said, get them checked out.

Now been 16 yrs with Paramo jackets and trousers and still my gear of choice for the extremes in Scottish weather. Given this week's terminal experience with another well known manufacturer's waterproof jacket, my views have been strengthened.

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

I have had a similar problem, I have an aspira smock and velez smock both of which have been fine, they both let a little water in around the zips in heavy rain, which is to be expected.
I have had a couple of pairs of their trousers and had some pretty bad experiences with. The worst being on Dartmoor whilst working and water was coming through them and filling my boots up.
I do have at least one day a year where they fail spectacularly. I have tried other stuff but find they get clammy so I just put a merino baselayer or something that keeps me warm when wet and get on with it.
Not ideal when you've forked out over £500 on a clothing system.

Jim

In reply to mikehike:

I agree that they shouldn't "wet out" when new. My point was about their "getting wet": though this doesn't sound like what the OP experienced, I thought it worth adding just for clarification.

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:
We used to get a few returns like this, not a lot but regularly enough to make me wonder if the paramo magic doesn't work unless you're a true believer. I remember one woman who'd been recommended paramo and ended up bringing two jackets back to us (one after the other) and seemed genuinely disappointed. The replacement she got she wore out of the shop in the rain and came back an hour later and it was, imo, noticably wet inside from rain. She exchanged it for a hardshell and that suited her better (I'll refrain from saying because it kept the rain out). I get it when goretex is returned, manufacturing defects, water getting through the membrane etc. but theoretically there's nothing to go wrong with a new paramo unless they've somehow forgotten to proof it, which would seem like something that may happen every blue moon not on a regular basis.

Thighs get wet if you're legs press the fabric tight while you walk (not that I'm saying you have big thighs obviously!). This is just due to the nature of the fabric, if you press hard against it while it's wet the water will seep through. If you were wearing a backpack then that might explain the shoulder problems.

Lots of people really love paramo, including people who work outdoors a lot (MRT, Sarda, guides etc.) but I think it just suits some people better than others. My 8 year old £150 GTX jacket keeps me dry every time and I've really abused it, no "oh, if the rains really heavy it leaks at the zips a bit which is to be expected", no "if you press against it or sit down it leaks a bit but that's just the nature of the fabric", no endless reproofing and carrying around a gallon of extra water soaked in the jacket and lamenting how well it breaths, which is handy seen as you're sweating so much in it etc. etc. Each to their own, you can guess which side I sit on but it sounds like you might be better with a hard shell.

Ben

In reply to Sharp:

I personally find Buffalo/Montane/Mardale to be far far better than Paramo... Kind of a Third option rather than standing side by side with the Paramo.

It will occasionally wet out, but generally even in the pissing rain with a big backpack compressing it the pile won't be holding water right next to your body, even if the garment is in fact rather moist... It's also far and away better at recovering from being soaked (even by immersion) than either of the other systems... Shame that it only comes in warm, extremely warm and cook dinner in the map pocket warm versions.

In reply to KellyKettle:

Mardale seem to have ceased to be.

In reply to Sharp:
I don't recognise this description; I have never had paramo wet through if you press on it/through the zips/whatever, and I've worn paramo stuff for more years than I can remember including all the time I lived in Scotland. The one time it started to get damp on the inside, it hadn't been proofed for about 2 years; a reproof fixed it.

However from this thread it seems that some people have had issues. Maybe as you say it depends on the person. Perhaps more likely they are having some serious quality control issues?

In reply to climbwhenready:


Next time you're out and it's raining sit down on something wet, wait a minute and you'll see what I mean about pressure moving water to the inside of the fabric (and to your once dry pants). I imagine it's the same thing with peoples experiences of wet thighs, walking into the rain while the movement of your legs presses the fabric against your thighs. That's just my guess at why the ops getting wet, the fabric should dry out pretty quickly once you're out of the driving rain though.

In reply to Sharp:
I came across this review a while ago which illustrates a few issues aside from the material.
http://www.climbgb.com/paramovelezadventuresmockreview.asp
I am not anti or pro paramo, I have some of the aspira trousers which have been bomb proof for winter use. Great feeling of pro ration in the worst of conditions. But they could be better cut etc.

In reply to steveshaking:
I think that' same pretty fair review of the velez. The 'internal storm flap' has to be one of the daftest ideas ever in outdoor garment design.

In reply to steveshaking:

Sorry if anybody has been trying to fathom that post. Don't know how my phone turned 'security' into 'pro ration'. Definitely not a new technical term...

In reply to steveshaking:

has anyone tried the new stretchy trousers? trying to work out which trousers to get

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

I have had similar problems with Paramo. I really want to like the stuff as I am oddly shaped enough that most of their garments fit like a glove but the three items I have personally used (Velez smock, Aspira smock, Quito trousers) have all leaked badly enough to take them back to the shop. I have become convinced that some items are better proofed than others as friends have not had such leaky kit, in fact when I went out in my Aspira I was walking with someone wearing a Velez which he had been using for about six months without re-proofing. I got soaked and he didn't. Just to make sure (as I was gathering info for a complaint) I put dry kit on and we swapped jackets and sure enough he got wet and I stayed dry. I love the feel of Paramo in the dry but I just don't have any confidence in it in the rain.

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

The pressure wetting is a serious issue if your activity involves sitting kneeling or leaning. Paramo acknowledge this but say the water is soon wicked away. I say that's nae guid if its soaked my kecks.

That said I love them for all things in the snow

In reply to DaveHK:

if your compatrin to membrain trousers how long will they last ifyour into kneeling in snow? Not that i have had a dissapointiny experiance or anything...

In reply to alasdair19:

My wife and I were out hill walking last week,we both wore brand new Velez adventure trousers, I was wearing my aspira smock,my wife had her Velez adventure light smock on,the weather was horrible, really strong winds and heavy rain, we both got absolutely soaked right through, our boots filled up with water, the water was dripping down our legs and in to our boots,twas a horrible feeling, I washed all garments in tech wash when we got home,we went out today, similar conditions, strong wind and rain,soaked again, the smocks have been reproofed about 6 months ago,the trousers haven't been proofed yet as they are brand new, not happy campers I can tell you,will have to reproof the trousers now and see how we get on,.

In reply to doneen:

I have Paramo adventure Light smock and aspira salopettes and find them both to be extremely waterproof in the worst Scotland throws at them. However the smock in particular needs regular reproofing. I would say I reproof my smock at least 4/5 times a year, shortest time between reproofing is 8 weeks but I had been up the hills in bad weather a lot.

If I wash, then I automatically reproof, some fabrics like event you can wash only but paramo, particularly as you have to rinse a couple of times really needs regular impregnation with nik wax tx direct wash in.

My smock has only ever let me down once and it was because I hadn't reproofed for a while having used the jacket regularly. When it is reproofed then I find it the most comfortable and driest of all my jackets, and they include a MR spec keela sdp, a rab pertex and a gore tex xcr.

In reply to PN82:

Maybe that's my problem, I only reproof with tx direct once a year, I wash the smocks every 6 weeks or so,I was led to believe that you only had to reproof once a year with tx direct and by washing regularly you replenish the waterproof dwr.just to clarify,do you reproof after every wash ??

In reply to doneen:

I found with the light fabric that its best to reproof after each wash. I have only washed and not reproofed once, it was ok but the weather was wintry which meant it was colder but less wet which the fabric copes with well. If it was warmer and wetter I would always reproof after washing. I spent a lot of time 2 weeks ago cleaning and reproofing all of mine and yesterday my smock coped with the highland wind and rain perfectly!

In reply to PN82:

I will try that,as I was really becoming disillusioned with my paramo gear,hoping I would stay dry whilst out walking, it seemed to cope ok with rain and moderate winds but if the wind was strong then I was guaranteed a soaking, don't know why the trousers failed as they were brand new,had never seen rain before,anyway I will proof them too,if I get wet after all this I'm burning them in the fire.Thanks for your tips, it's much appreciated, fingers crossed.

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

I've had my paramo kit out in some pretty disgusting weather and every time apart from one has it worked like a treat. Once on crib goch in january with +2 degrees and full on sideways slightly upwards rain the trousers started leaking like a sieve but the jacket did ok. I still got wet but honestly I think much of the upper body wetness was down to rain coming in through the hood and from underneath. The trousers (aspira salopettes) on the other hand developed a nasty leak on the inside of the leg where the harness was and water started running down my legs. The paramo stuff isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but it is genuinely good gear with its specific quirks you need to be aware of.

In reply to Hannes:

How often do you wash and reproof your gear.

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

I have an aspira smock, which is great but too heavy for alpine stuff, so I bought a Quito. Both bits haven't let me down.

In reply to jonnie3430:

I'm obviously doing something wrong with my gear,or I'm just unlucky with the kit I have, going to try the proofing every time I wash the gear as suggested earlier.

In reply to doneen:

I haven't really washed the stuff either, I do run warm, which I think helps...

In reply to doneen:

As they are new the trousers could be faulty?

Remember the basic of cleaning out your washing machine of all detergent, using soap based cleaner, using heat to activate the DWR, etc. Also you can over proof or so paramo tells folk!

None of my paramo jackets have ever let me down in 15 yrs of all Scotland can throw at you. Similarly with any of my paramo trouser, except only once with a pair of cascada trousers. This was in horizontal lashing rain in gale force winds. The pressure effect does cause the rain to seep through. I was wet thro to the legs then, but dry on upper body. I'm guessing it was a combination of water pressure and lack of proofing since I have been out in equally poor conditions more times than I can remember with various models of paramo trouser and not had a repeat experience.

Paramo is a love or hate and so there maybe (must be in my opinion!) other factors in play with actual users - like jonnie3430 I run hot and this may or may not help to keep the directional movement of water in the correct direction*? Is it the material, the treatment, the user, etc, who knows, but I remember speaking to the owner of an outdoor shop years ago and he said his wife's jacket had never been washed in 8 yrs and was still waterproof! Go figure.

If paramo suits you great, if not suggest you would be better using an alternative as you may never be happy and have niggling problems with using and maintaining the gear.
Edit: * Prob not as I know at least six others I have been regularly in the hills who also have paramo gear and none of them have got wet and most of them do not run hot.

In reply to Climbing Pieman:
I never use heat to activate the dwr, it says on the bottle that it's not necessary, the Velez smock and Velez trousers can't go in to tumble dryer anyway, only my aspira can go in tumble dryer but I must confess I never put it in to the dryer after reproofing,the trousers are brand new, I have washed and reproofed everything again,hopefully we will get strong winds and heavy rain soon to give them another try.

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

The Nikwax stuff doesn't need heat treating which is great for all of those of us that don't have tumble driers.

I wash my paramo stuff when it is starting to bead less than normal however often that may be

In reply to doneen:


Paramo have changed their view on this iirc over the years since I started with paramo. My latest bottle of tx direct still talks about tumble drying were garment care allows and this was always the old advice from paramo. They have probably had to change the advice due to the lighter weight fabrics they have used for many years, and they fact that they actively market for proofing other makes and types of waterproof jackets?

Sometimes I tumble dry, but mostly I don't and as has been said it is not needed with Nikwax stuff. I still remain dry whether I do or don't.

A point on dozing, personally I only use a third of the recommended dosage of tx direct to maintain the dwr. Any more when just topping up the dwr is a waste I've felt. I reproof every third wash or so usually.

Anyway, good luck this time. If not get in touch with Paramo who have very good customer service unless you decide paramo is not for you.

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

In the last couple of years I've stopped using Tech Wash in favour of soap flakes, it's a hell of a lot cheaper. I dissolve two tablespoons of soap flakes in a cup of water before poring directly into the washing machine drum. To reproof a garment I let it air dry and then place it on a hanger in the garage and spray with the Nikwax product. When I'm satisfied with the coverage I tumble dry it on a low setting. Look after your gear and it'll look after you, well that's the plan.😉

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:

I've used a Velez adventure Light for 5 years all over the UK for Hillwalking in all weathers and Aspira Trousers in Scotland, Norway and Peru for general winter climbng, ice climbing and high altitude. As others have said it is all down to your care in the washing and re-proofing. For the Velez I use my machine for tech-wash (maybe six to eight times a year and then every other time with TX after - though only ever by hand in a bucket). The Aspirsa get washed twice or three times a season with tech wash and get TX each time. it is critical to clean the soap drawer and the inside of soap drawer properly to remove all traces of standard detergent - i also run the machine empty on a high temp wash after cleaning to remove all possible residue before tech wash. I never TX in the machine. Always use a large bucket and do it by hand.

I have never worn over trousers with the Aspira, and i have never ever got wet despite going out in utterly minging conditions many times.

Paramo gets a big fat thumbs up from me.

In reply to stratandrew:

Never got wet, in a garment loaded with zips, vents, pockets, and ordinary sewn seams, that can't stop water ingress? It doesn't matter how often you proof the fabric, wind driven rain will easily get through Paramo!
I just use the Aspira smock as a cold,wintry weather softshell. It's good at that. For wet weather, give me a standard hardshell, every time.

In reply to Steve Humm 4395:
This thread is a great exposition of the entrenched positions of Paramo lovers and haters. I'm with the latter simply because of the weight of the stuff. I started climbing with a pair of thermals under some woollen breeches (just wait, they'll come back into fashion) and that combination was pretty warm and comfortable when soaked through in a way that Paramo still relies on, so I get it, I just don't want to wear it. And the penalty of having to make regular costume changes during the day used to be something I'd try to avoid, now it's an opportunity, on a hike or the walk-in, for a breather and an appreciation of the view, not to mention the simple pleasure of staying dry and comfortable without overheating. Perhaps in a hundred years, climbers fascinated by history will organise hikes in retro-Paramo/Buffalo garments? Or maybe everyone will be wearing it?

In reply to BnB:

Yup, I reckon it could easily replace Month Pythons 'Dead Parrot sketch'

ME: I want to buy a water proof outfit please....

Salesman: Have you considered the Paramo gear?

Me: is it any good?

Salesman : Oh yes, Our customers swear by it! Did you know, the British Antarctic Survey, issue it too?! It's that good!!

Me: must rain a lot down there....look at all the white stuff they have , eh?

Salesmn; Oh sure!

Me: what are those funny foam strips in the jackets rear all about then?

Salesman: that's to keep you sac from pressing against your jacket and causing wet to get through...

Me: ah okay....what's the foam pads in the trousers for then?....

Salesman: :. ..Sillly...That's to stop you getting wet knees, when you kneel on the snow for instance..Whilst wearing your 'waterproof troos'...

Me: ah okay then...your sure this jackets really waterproof ? There's a hell of a lot of zips, and unsealed seams and such like. Are they taped to stop...y 'know. ..Water getting through?

Salesman: all our customers swear by the 'Paramo Pump/analogy system'...Don't worry! Your body heat will force any moisture out through the shell, you'll be bone dry by the time you get back to the car. In fact you can probably drive home wearing the same clothes you've had on all day!!

Me: sounds amazing! Gimme one of those 300 quid Smock thingies. ' if it's okay for BAS? '..

Salesman: certainly Sir....would you like to buy some 'Angel dust' to sprinkle on the jacket too?...

Me: eh?

Salesman: Well, in the trade we call call it Nikwax...

In reply to stratandrew:
it is critical to clean the soap drawer and the inside of soap drawer properly to remove all traces of standard detergent - i also run the machine empty on a high temp wash after cleaning to remove all possible residue before tech wash. I never TX in the machine. Always use a large bucket and do it by hand.


This is the exact procedure I carry out,only thing I'm unsure of, is, how long do you agitate for after the initial 10 minute soaking, any chance you could run through your tx procedure for me,just to ease my mind that what I'm doing is correct, many thanks.