How does Cuillin Ridge Traverse compare to Welsh 3000s?

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 Ian84 14 Oct 2014
Hi There,

New to this site so any help gratefully received.

I recently completed teh Welsh 3000s in around 19 hours with some friends. This was a great experience and hard work but ultimately left me wanting rather more in terms of technicality/exposure. With the exceptions of Crib Goch and Tryfan the route itself felt pretty tame and although long, was far more achievable than I had expected. That said, it was well worth it for the views offered along the whole route.

With that in mind I am seeking my next "mini expedition" type challenge and would love to have a crack at the Cuillin Traverse.

My question is: how much of a step up from the W3000 is this both in terms of conditioning required and technical ability?

I am aware that some actual climbing is required in sections with associated ropework but as a general feel on the route does anyone have any information they could give to get an idea of comparison?
 Offwidth 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

If you go lightweight you need to be confident pretty much solo in approach shoes when tired on tricky HVD that may not be in ideal condition.
 Coel Hellier 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

Most of the Welsh 3000s is walking, with a few bits of scrambling. In contrast, most of the Skye ridge is scrambling, that's the big difference. You need to do a lot of scrambling at about moderate grade, often above big drops, at a decent pace. Plus there's the roped bits, of course, and the fact that you're carrying whatever ropes and equipment you need for those, so have a heavier sack than on the Welsh 3000s. You'll also likely need to carry more water. Also, the route finding is often hard on the Skye ridge (whereas the Welsh 3000 is straightforward), and if you go off route you find yourself on much harder ground and may need to double back. Lots of people recce the ridge before going for their attempt.

So, overall, I'd say it is quite a lot tougher as a challenge.
 atrendall 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:
I'd say the Cuillin Ridge is a big step up. Much more intricate route finding (unless you are blessed with clear conditions all the time), technically much harder with the TD Gap and Naismith's route being full on rock climbs rather than just exposed lower grade scrambling. But it is a doable challenge and something that is a fantastic achievement. Have a look at Skye Guides website where Mike Lates has an excellent free download with much advice on the ridge;

http://skyeguides.co.uk/information/downloads/
 L.A. 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:
Perhaps it might be worth having a look at the Glen Rosa horseshoe on Arran to start with (or continuing that ridge over the Witches Step along Glen Sannox), before committing youself for a big step up in scale/ grade with the Skye ridge?
Post edited at 14:43
OP Ian84 14 Oct 2014
In reply to atrendall, Coel Hellier and Offwidth:

Thank you for your comments. This is definitely one to work towards I think.

Are you able to suggest any ridges that offer a good intermediate progression between these two that combine technicality/exposure and distance?
OP Ian84 14 Oct 2014
In reply to L.A.:
Many thanks to your comment as well (it wasn't visible when I was typing my last)
 Coel Hellier 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

> Are you able to suggest any ridges that offer a good intermediate progression between these two that combine technicality/exposure and distance?

The obvious thing to do is to attempt bits of the Skye ridge. Doing a quarter of it is a fantastic day out in itself and if you've done the ridge in four quarters then it will stand you in good stead for the whole-ridge attempt.

Also, things like the North Ridge of Sgùrr nan Gillean or the Dubh Ridge are fantastic days out and will give you a feel for the place. Outside of Skye, the Aonach Eagach is an obvious choice.
 Ramblin dave 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

> Are you able to suggest any ridges that offer a good intermediate progression between these two that combine technicality/exposure and distance?

I'd be interested in more stuff like this, too - ideally including some stuff that doesn't involve schlepping out to Arran!
 wilkie14c 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

A big step. How big depends on if you are a climber or not I guess. I did the W3000 in reverse simply to enjoy the scrambling going up - Tryfan, Bristley ridge and Crib goch, did it carrying full bivvy kit in a heatwave and took 24 hours inc a bivvy sleep and it was tough. Skye was way harder but different technically, as already said its loads of climbing and route finding is tough, forget it if the cloud is down. Water is a problem as is daylight. It took me until 3rd attempt to crack it.
My advice to you, in a perfect world, would be to have a week up on skye in late spring as the weather can be tropical (for skye) and have a day doing the TD gap, Kings chimney and in pinn as roped climbs. Another day doing the spur and once on the ridge do some further exploring around this difficult to route find middle section. Another day perhaps doing the traverse of gillian will get you ok with the tooth and the walk out.
Then its up to you, 2 days or 1? I've done both and given the choice again I'd do one every time as I know I can do it so why take a back breaking ammount of kit when I don't have to? The TD gap can be bypassed quite easily as can kings chimney by opting to do collies ledge, these dodges alone can save several hours if its busy up there. It is acceptable and you should have already had ticked these bits earlier in the week. You know what to expect at the in pinn if you'd done it earlier in the week so can solo it if confident.
Take a look at the skye guides web page, mike has a 'tips for success' download to help you. If time or partners are short condsider booking one of mikes guides for the route. It'll be the best money you've ever spent on climbing.
Just A.N.Other giving point of view but there you go.
 Mark Kemball 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:
Having done both, many years ago, I would say that the Cuillin is definitely harder. There are three issues - fitness, which, given the 3000s is probably not a problem for you, navigation and rock climbing ability. Navigation in mist can be difficult - you can't use a compass, but if you're good at reading contours, you should be ok and now we have GPS which ought to be very helpful. (We did the ridge in '83 without any reccies, in mist for most of it, and went off route twice.) Rock climbing - this could well be a limiting factor, looking at your profile. You need to be able to move quickly and confidently, mainly un-roped, on reasonably easy ground when tired. This is much easier for an experienced climber, regularly leading HVS or harder, as then you have a lot in reserve. It also means you can carry a lot less kit - we took 1 9mm rope, a small bunch of wires and a few slings and krabs. We did not take harnesses, tying on round the waist for the 2 or 3 sections we pitched, using waist belays (so no belay plates), and abseiling semi-classically using a sling as an improvised harness. Obviously, if you play it that way, the load is much lighter, but the climbing needs to be well in your comfort zone.
Post edited at 15:11
 wilkie14c 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:
> (In reply to atrendall, Coel Hellier and Offwidth)

> Are you able to suggest any ridges that offer a good intermediate progression between these two that combine technicality/exposure and distance?

the Aonach Eagach ridge is good but a bit short on scrambling and route finding to prepare you for skye. Tower Ridge and return via the CMD arete would be a great warm up I'd imagine.
OP Ian84 14 Oct 2014
In reply to wilkie14c and Mark Kemball:

Thanks both for your comments. Really helpful.

I'm doing a trip up to Fort William with some friends soon and we're currently discussing routes so the three mentioned above could be really good.

Mark - love the old school, lightweight approach. Not convinced I'd have the bottle to do it without the comfort of all the nice jingly bits hanging from my harness though!
 Steve Perry 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:
I once did a scramblers Cuillin Ridge traverse years before I was skilled with ropes/climbing. We used the Skye Scrambles book to plot bypassing the technical climbing sections. It's not as good as a pure traverse but it will give you a taste for it and introduce some good sections of the ridge.
OP Ian84 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Steve Perry:
Thanks Steve - definitely something to consider. Are you able to do this in a continuous traverse or did you have to break it up into sections that you had to ascend to/descend from each time?

Would like to do a true traverse but this could be a great option for familiarisation/bottling it
 Offwidth 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

Clach Glas - Blaven is a good warm up... same rock type and proper climbing but a good bit easier. You can also bypass the tricky climbing bits on the main ridge if you read the detailed advice. To be honest the looser exposed descents were the most terrifying bit for me as a VS leading climber. My knees were injured at the time and that and the prosepct of those nasty scary descents with a heavy pack meant lightweight was my only option. As said above route finding is horrific in cloud partly as the rock is magnetic, so I wouldnt bother unless its partly clear.
 Steve Perry 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:
We did it in one go over 15hrs and it involved some grade 3 scrambling which was quite airy up Gillean if I recall.
I'd email Mike Lates if I was you, he's a real helpful chap.
Wiley Coyote2 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

I'd say there's almost no point in comparing them at all because the challenges are so very different. The Welsh 3s is a very tough day and no mean achievement but, it is essentially a gruelling walk with little technical difficulty, certainly nothing like you will come across on SKye. Given decent weather it's really just a test of fitness, will-power and determination with three very clear sections with rest and refuelling points in between.
The Skye Ridge is completely different. The rock climbing is not desperate but you need to be competent on slick ropework and abseiling as well as climbing to keep up with the clock. At least as crucial, however (at least in my opinion) is the ability to keep moving solo at a reasonable pace over moderately tricky ground and to be happy scrambling over big drops. If you have to keep stopping to put the rope on you're going to take forever. As others have said, the best preparation would be to do separate sections of the cuillin like the round of Corrie Lagan, Blaven, Pinnacle Ridge, the Dubhs etc. (all fabuilous days in their own right) to get the feel of it and to build skills, fitness and confidence.
If your luck is anything like mine you may need several visits anyway. I'd been snowed off it, rained off it, and had to abandon it in perfect conditions to help with two separate rescues before I finally did it. Otherwise just do whatever scrambles you can. When we did it I was leading E3 and my mate E5/6 and still found the Tooth hard going at the end of a long, scorching day when it was in the high 80s in Glasgow and like a furnace on the ridge.
That may sound like a lot of hard graft but the traverse is worth every second of it. I still count it as one of the best days of my life,
 mbh 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Wiley Coyote:

>with three very clear sections with rest and refuelling points in between.

or two, if you are doing it (N-S) with your wife, who says " Come on we're gonna finish this!", just as you stumble into Nant Peris, and starts haring off up the road, Crib Goch in her sights.
 simon cox 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

The key thing about the Cuillin Ridge is that it has a lot of scrambling that is in a dangerous situation and is loose. So realistically you cant rope a lot of it - so you need to be confident and really focused. Unfortunately when I was in the Edinburgh Uni Club one of our members died on it pulling off a loose block. Dont want to put you off but it is a serous undertaking. On the 3000 ers you just need to pay a bit of attention on Crib Goch and that is it. As many have suggested big days out involving lots of scrambling is the way to go - I think if you are confident in soloing Tower Ridge on the Ben - I would say that would be a good bench mark but expect more lose rock.

Cheers,
 Mark Kemball 14 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

Another thing to think of, late June, 20+ hours of daylight, very handy!
In reply to Ian84:

> Thank you for your comments. This is definitely one to work towards I think.

> Are you able to suggest any ridges that offer a good intermediate progression between these two that combine technicality/exposure and distance?

What about the torridonian triptych of beinn eighe, liathach and beinn Alligin? Each has passages of scrambling, not much harder than crib goch but together there is a bit more in total. A lot of descent and reascent so distance and effort wise they must be comparable. Plus they are three of the most dramatic and scenically inspiring mountains in the UK. ..

Cheers

Gregor
 Al Evans 15 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

Less fitness required, more technical ability and luck with the weather.
 atrendall 15 Oct 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

Agree with the technical difficulty and luck with the weather but dispute the fitness issue. The Cuillin is either a very long day for most mortals or two days carrying bivi gear.
 chiz 15 Oct 2014
In reply to atrendall:

I'd agree with Al re fitness. I was pretty unfit and injured for the Cuillin and managed to finish in a decent time and ran down to the pub. The 3000s killed a far fitter me towards the very end (which I didn't make). But the Cuillin is far <harder>. And better.
To an extent with the Cuillin you just need to keep on keeping on. Scrambling nous is far more important than fitness. Obviously you can't do it if a total couch potato, but I was in no way properly hillfit.
That's just me though.
 Offwidth 15 Oct 2014
In reply to chiz:

Agreed. I was a good distance from hill fit but very climbing fit at the grades concerned. Four hours walk in, first half 6 hours despite some queues then 10 for second half clear of queues as my knee protested. 22 in total.
 Exile 15 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

In terms of fitness I found running the Welsh 3000s about the same as doing the Cullin traverse in a comfortable day. As has been said the Cullin has more climbing. A great day out to prep is up NE Buttress, down Tower Ridge and up Observatory Ridge on the Ben which is a shorter day as it involves less height gain and less fitness as it can be more stop / start. Having said that what it does do is ensure you can concentrate on technical and semi technical ground for a long (by British standards) time. If you can finish that with gas in the tank, or finish over the CMD arête, you'll be able to do the Cullin and enjoy it rather than just survive.
 Phil1919 15 Oct 2014
In reply to Ian84:

Its the best mountaineering day out in the UK. Not worth rushing at it too much. Plenty of other stuff in Scotland to keep you going for a bit. Then approach it in good style, in good conditions. When we did it we were there for a week, did two recces, and then were lucky with the weather.

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