Advice on starting to take running more seriously.

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 Swirly 08 Sep 2014

Hi, I'm after some general advice on running training/goals. I've read a fair bit but am slightly confused about some of the terminology.

I've been running for about 3 months or so, mainly 5/10 km between 1 and 3 times a week. This was started as a way to lose weight and get fit after realising a massive kick up the arse was needed. I have got to the point where, begrudgingly, I'd say I'm enjoying the running.

Someone at work has suggested running a half marathon in March so now I'm trying to come up with a decent time to aim for. The distance doesn't worry me; I ran 17 km yesterday and felt OK at the end. I do realise that upping distance from 10 km like that isn't the best idea but I wanted a better idea of what I could cope with. Now I'm pretty fit but slow. Current PB for 10 km is 56 minutes* and the 17km took me 1hr 34.

* I'd also like to knock this below 50 minutes, something I got near years ago, but that's a side goal.

Questions: From this base is a target time of 1 hr 50 sensible? Given the time available should I aim faster or slower? I have no idea. Realistically I could get out 3 times a week on top of cycling to/from work and an intense badminton session.

On the training front I've read a lot of plans that talk about slow runs, fast runs and tempo runs but nothing that really explains what they are. How would slow and fast compare to target pace?

What does tempo mean, I took it to be like threshold in cycling but something I read suggested it might be intervals?

Is there any accurate way to judge pace while running, currently I base effort on how well I can speak: aiming to be able to talk in half sentences, if I can say a whole sentence I speed up a bit if it's only 2 or 3 words I slow down a bit.

Finally, I tend to sweat quite a lot. What's the best way to remain hydrated? I guess in an organised event there would be feed stations but I remember thinking yesterday that if I was on the bike I would definitely be having a drink right now.

Thanks for bothering to read all this wittering/any response in advance.
Post edited at 22:05
 The New NickB 08 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:

Keep it simple to start with. Your 17k was at quicker pace than your 10k, which suggests you can go faster at 10k. Do one run a week of up to 2 hours, do a fast 5k, either a race a park run or a tempo (just a high tempo run, not intervals), your 5k should a good bit faster than your long run, but will help you build speed for the longer stuff. Do at least one other run, say 10k. You should start to see some improvement with that.
 The New NickB 08 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:

People tend to over hydrate, make sure you drink plenty a couple of hours before you run, but you shouldn't need a drink on less than hour and a half unless it is very hot.
 Banned User 77 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:

sweating a lot is no issue..


"I've been running for about 3 months or so, mainly 5/10 km between 1 and 3 times a week. This was started as a way to lose weight and get fit after realising a massive kick up the arse was needed. I have got to the point where, begrudgingly, I'd say I'm enjoying the running."


Just run more.. you are still running very little.. anything you do will lead to improvements…

I'd also say a few shorter races to give you motivation, try intervals etc.. but just mix up your running and run more, your aerobic base is so poor (to be blunt) anything you do will improve it so don't worry too much about exactly what you do…


Run trails, run routes you'd normally hike on.. thats fell running.. try and go longer once every few weeks.. vary your speeds.. listen to your body. Running is all about consistency.. so enjoy it, so you do it more.. don't get injured and mix it all up..
 Banned User 77 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:

Also yeah, you should be able to talk.. thats a basic sign of aerobic running.. when racing you should never be able to day dream..
 Ava Adore 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:

Slow runs are those where you can speak in sentences. As you start to increase your mileage, you should incorporate a long slow run every week.

Tempo runs are those at effort but not busting a gut.







 Tall Clare 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Ava Adore:

I was always confused by what tempo meant, so thank you for clearing that up.

Swirly, thanks for this thread - very helpful for me too.
 Banned User 77 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Tall Clare:

Tempo is roughly half marathon pace, maybe a tad slower.. for me it is busting a gut..

But its a pace you can run for 20-30 minutes hard for..
 Ava Adore 09 Sep 2014
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to Tall Clare)
>
> Tempo is roughly half marathon pace, maybe a tad slower..

Huh??? What if you don't run half marathon distance??
Clauso 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Ava Adore:

> Huh??? What if you don't run half marathon distance??

Yeah. That.
 The New NickB 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Ava Adore:
> Huh??? What if you don't run half marathon distance??

20 / 30 seconds a mile slower than your 10k pace.
Post edited at 14:36
Clauso 09 Sep 2014
In reply to The New NickB:

Huh??? What if you don't run 10k?
 Ava Adore 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Clauso:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
>
> Huh??? What if you don't run 10k?

^^^^ Yeah that
 wbo 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:
As said. It doesn't matter if you intend to run 1/2's or not, if you're going to run tempo runs to improve your 10K, then you'll need to calculate a predicted 1/2 mar pace.

You would use them in place of a VERY long interval session. The issue I have with tempo runs is that if you're inexperienced and not used to training 'hard' then it can be very difficult to get the pacing right, and that you'll typically start too hard and finish too soft/tired.
 steveriley 09 Sep 2014
People do use the term a bit loosely it has to be said. A lot of people do a tempo sandwich - 20-30 mins harder with say 10 mins either side of easier running. Rather than just trying to run hard for 40 mins and failing.
 Banned User 77 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Ava Adore:

mcmillan calculator..

It doesn't really matter, its not precise.. you'll see different paces for tempos but its genially between marathon and half pace.

For me marathon is about 6mm, half 5:40mm.. so anything 5:50 and below is OK.. I don't get too hung up.
 kathrync 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Ava Adore:

Calculator on Runner's World for people trying to work out tempo/ 1/2 marathon pace from a 5 or 10 km pace:

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/general/rws-training-pace-calculator/1676.htm...
 kathrync 09 Sep 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

> mcmillan calculator..

Or that one
 Banned User 77 09 Sep 2014
In reply to kathrync:

I won't use runners world.. they stole an article I wrote and re-ran it as there's.. then threatened me for highlighting it… one of the most disgusting company's in the running world..

But it does have some handy resources.. I just wished they could credit where they steal ideas from...
 kathrync 09 Sep 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

> I won't use runners world.. they stole an article I wrote and re-ran it as there's.. then threatened me for highlighting it… one of the most disgusting company's in the running world..

> But it does have some handy resources.. I just wished they could credit where they steal ideas from...

Fair enough! That was just the one that I have bookmarked from a couple of years back. I'll have a look at the mcmillan one in that case!
 Banned User 77 09 Sep 2014
In reply to kathrync:

mcmillan is staffed by proper runners too.. its not the be all and end all of running but anyone can be a coach.. if you look at mcmillan staff they are all very experienced. I know Ian through ultra's this side and may well pay him for coaching myself once my job situation gets sorted.

But you can have confidence in what you read on that site.. runners world can be hit and miss..

The running world is lethal, far far more aggressive than climbing.. breeze over to lets run for a taste, so guys like macmillan would be called out quickly.
 Liam M 09 Sep 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

> mcmillan calculator..

> It doesn't really matter, its not precise.. you'll see different paces for tempos but its genially between marathon and half pace.

> For me marathon is about 6mm, half 5:40mm.. so anything 5:50 and below is OK.. I don't get too hung up.

I've always considered tempo pace to be nearer to 10mile pace, about half way between 10k and half marathon pace. This is pretty much exactly where Daniel's vdot tables put it.
 Banned User 77 09 Sep 2014
In reply to Liam M:

It varies on who you use.. You'll see many estimations. But 10k to half marathon isn't much.. 10 seconds or so.. I wouldn't get overly concerned with my tempo pace being a precise pace.

For me its 5:30-5:50 somewhere in there, with others I can probably hold 5:35-5:40 on my own 5:45-5:50
 Banned User 77 11 Sep 2014
In reply to Liam M:

Also I was reading about this last night as we are struggling getting the right paces for our students we are coaching..

It looks like LT is quicker for slower runners.. so more like 10k pace, whereas more like 1/2 for quicker runners.

I did an LT session last night at my 10 mile speed, 1200m x 6 off short rests and felt a nicely hard session.. whereas my missus tried one 8x8's off 30sec rest and was too comfortable at her 10 mile pace.. I think hers is probably closer to her 10k pace.
 steveriley 11 Sep 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

If you flip that around it suggests that better conditioned runners can sustain LT for longer, Re: HM vs 10k. Which kinda makes sense.
 Banned User 77 11 Sep 2014
In reply to SteveRi:

Yeah, the article was actually saying the hard thing is also its too easy a pace so runners want to push it as it feels too easy.

I find vdot ambitious for me though. I can run 55 for 10mile, 1:13 for a half yet Daniels has me doing intervals at 2:20-2:24 for 800m.. I just could not hit that pace.. 2:30-2:35 at most..

 Ava Adore 11 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:

As a relatively experienced runner I have absolutely no clue what the last posters are talking about, so don't worry if you don't either
 wbo 11 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:

If you flip that around it suggests that better conditioned runners can sustain LT for longer, Re: HM vs 10k -
I'd agree with that, handling LT is surely a measure of fitness.

As a relatively experience runner I'd say these are really hard to get right, and as a newcomer with probably an unreliable feeling for what you race at really, an inability to judge pace and the new sensation of sore legs I think it's a big ask to calculate a threshold. Even Ian admits it's hard to predict, and he's in a much better positions. Do you know of a marked kilometer or similar you can use, maybe on a quiet piece of road near your house? Run km reps on that instead.

 Banned User 77 11 Sep 2014
In reply to Ava Adore:
You don't have to.. But he's asking about tempos and intervals... So the physiology matters..

A tempo can be intervals, but they should be slower, often longer with shorter rest.. As it's about working at your lactate threshold..,

All very different to your VO2max sessions which are the classic intervals.. Fast with longer rests.. Typically..

But pace is just a proxy measure ... We don't know LT without lactic acid testing which serious runners will use.. So we use proxies to guestimate... The best way is to use lactate tests with a HR monitor then run with the HR monitor...

But without that pairing of LA data with HR for that specific runner HR alone is hard... So you go with pace as data many people can use...but what pace we can run off our fitness varies on health, stress , diet, time of day etc.. So don't get too caught up in pace alone..

But I'm a biologist and really enjoy getting into that side, especially now I have a team to coach as when I was just self coaching I could just work off how I felt..

But there's also no hard and fast rules in running. Just general ideas which may work. I was chatting to a guy who is a 14:15 runner and his coach, ex-world champ.. Couldn't work out why his new team couldn't hit the times in races yet all his sessions were the same... So he got all their training data and his new guys were doing intervals/tempos right but we're running too slow in the non-session days.. Which he corrected and times came down..

This contradicts the commonly held view that we often run sessions too easy and non sessions too hard..
Post edited at 14:39
 steveriley 11 Sep 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

Add to the mix I think we read a weird conflation of advice for athletes and advice for enthusiasts. So the fitness industry is keen to keep people engaged, in it for the longer term and not put newbies off and errs on the side of caution ...whilst 'athletes' (and I know it's a spectrum, rather than a binary thing) have the conditioning and the willingness to put themselves through the wringer to get where they want to. Me, I'm just a fellrunning donkey with no pace, a bit of half-arsed science and an interest
 Banned User 77 11 Sep 2014
In reply to SteveRi:
Yeah, all the advice on line can actually make it harder too.. my main issue is all those sites who say the magic session to drop 10k times.. or get fit quick.. running is about long term consistency an pacing.. but even salazar believes a runner can hit 90% of their potential on 4 runs a week.. but you can't escape the need to build an aerobic base… and that takes time.

The team I help coach are very green and don't read much, it actually helps us as its a blank slate..

Our main issue is trying to work out what 'hard' is and when they are suffering that nice pain from good training compared to injury looming.

We have a decent womens team in with a shot of the conference title we are in, but we have 5 runners for 5 team counters.. so an injury could wipe out our season.

All that comes withe experience and running and can't really be taught.. things like pace judgement to.

We have an 800m grassy loop they run and I've started timing to half way and you can see they know how to jog easy and then pick it up which is damaging how our sessions are working.. we have no running track so I think we'll do a trip to one to try to get them used to hitting times every 200m and run constant paces..
Post edited at 16:26
 Banned User 77 18 Sep 2014
In reply to SteveRi:

I was chatting with our head coach today, explaining that lactate threshold is the pace you can run hard at for an hour.. so for some that's closer to 10 mile pace, for others its closer to 10 k pace.. which helps explain why its quicker relatively for slower runners..
 Timmd 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:

Start frowning and have a set mouth? |:-||

()
In reply to Timmd:

> Start frowning and have a set mouth? |:-||

> ()

Yes, and use more jargon too.
 Neil Williams 25 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:

Your 10k is a similar time to mine, and I seem to manage just sub 2 hours on a reasonably flat road half, or about 2h15 on a trail half.

But I'm not training seriously as such, I'm just doing about what you are - 5 to 10K about 3 times a week. Makes a hell of a difference to your general fitness very quickly.

As for judging pace...it's hard to call, I've just always had a good feel for what I've got left or when I feel I'm pushing a bit hard. The more you run the more you'll get used to it.

Neil
 Neil Williams 25 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:

As regards hydration, I find that overhydrating a bit at the start works, though that does give you the risk of having to stop for a slash. I don't ever bother carrying water on a 10K, as to whether I did on a longer run it would depend on the weather (I have a tendency to overheat).

Neil
 Radioactiveman 25 Sep 2014
In reply to Swirly:

Has anyone suggested joining a club ?

Structured training sessions with like minded people. If I was training alone I wouldnt train anywhere near as hard as I do on club nights

Really helped push me on massively in the last 12 months.
 Neil Williams 25 Sep 2014
In reply to Radioactiveman:

Interesting...I've considered it, but the big advantage of running to me is that I can do it anywhere and any time I want, and the whole time (other than 5 minutes afterwards for a quick shower) is spent running - no getting to/from a gym, no depending on opening hours etc.

Neil
 MonkeyPuzzle 25 Sep 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

That's it; I am honest enough with myself enough that if I start to involve meeting times, drives, changing rooms or too much other 'faff' then I'm just going to sack something off. If I plan to go running, I grab my shoes the second I'm in the door from work and that's me committed. Five minutes later I'm out the door.
 The New NickB 25 Sep 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

It depends on your lifestyle, I run 5 or 6 days a week, sometime twice a day, but the sessions that don't happen sometimes are the ones where I am doing my own thing. If I have a club session or have arranged to meet someone for a run, that run always happens. Even for someone quite motivated, left to my own devices, probably 1/3 of the time the run doesn't happen. 90% of the time my lifestyle and commitments allow me to plan like that though, which obviously helps.

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