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It may have already been posted, but I can't keep up with all the Scotland threads...
Thoughts on this?
http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/in-full-general-sir-richard...
Thoughts on this?
http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/in-full-general-sir-richard...
In reply to sweenyt:
Not sure it adds that much TBH the white paper is a bit lacking in detail on lots of issues.
Not sure it adds that much TBH the white paper is a bit lacking in detail on lots of issues.
In reply to sweenyt:
A Knight of the British realm and General of the British Army doesn't
want to break up the British realm and the British Army.
Not entirely surprising...don't think it adds much but I'm sure someone
will be along shortly to explain how frightened people should be to vote yes...
A Knight of the British realm and General of the British Army doesn't
want to break up the British realm and the British Army.
Not entirely surprising...don't think it adds much but I'm sure someone
will be along shortly to explain how frightened people should be to vote yes...
In reply to 999thAndy:
Isn't that a telling admission? Asking people to make such a far reaching vote based on crap information and forward planning!?
> Not sure it adds that much TBH the white paper is a bit lacking in detail on lots of issues.
Isn't that a telling admission? Asking people to make such a far reaching vote based on crap information and forward planning!?
In reply to Trangia:
I think that is a bit harsh. No one can predict the future. A yes vote is merely a mandate to start negotiations on the break up of two countries. As with any negotiations, the outcome is only known at the end. One can posture all you like prior to negotiations, but the outcome is still unknown.
> Isn't that a telling admission? Asking people to make such a far reaching vote based on crap information and forward planning!?
I think that is a bit harsh. No one can predict the future. A yes vote is merely a mandate to start negotiations on the break up of two countries. As with any negotiations, the outcome is only known at the end. One can posture all you like prior to negotiations, but the outcome is still unknown.
In reply to ByEek:
We'll have none of that balanced, sensible nonsense on any threads concerning Scotland.....
We'll have none of that balanced, sensible nonsense on any threads concerning Scotland.....
In reply to Removed User:
I have a goodly number of Scottish relatives (I'm married to a Scot) - whose feet are firmly in the Yes camp. Whilst they are very proud to be Scots, they all share one common attribute -- none of them have ever worked in the private sector.
By contrast most of my other Scottish relatives who have worked in the private sector are pretty firmly in support of maintaining the Union.
There is an old proverb "be careful what you wish for -- it might just happen"
I have a goodly number of Scottish relatives (I'm married to a Scot) - whose feet are firmly in the Yes camp. Whilst they are very proud to be Scots, they all share one common attribute -- none of them have ever worked in the private sector.
By contrast most of my other Scottish relatives who have worked in the private sector are pretty firmly in support of maintaining the Union.
There is an old proverb "be careful what you wish for -- it might just happen"
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
I wonder if there are more substantial data to back that up? Its certainly an interesting hypothesis
I wonder if there are more substantial data to back that up? Its certainly an interesting hypothesis
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Worked in the private sector all my life, change has been the only constant during that time. Yes or No the only thing certain is we haven't a clue whats coming, but I'll adapt. I'm not frightened with whatever path but carry a lot of contempt for the bullshit spouted by people on both sides.
One thing this process had done is that people have had a right good look at all aspects of Scottish life, if they carry that on after the vote and call those responsible to account it can't be a bad thing.
Worked in the private sector all my life, change has been the only constant during that time. Yes or No the only thing certain is we haven't a clue whats coming, but I'll adapt. I'm not frightened with whatever path but carry a lot of contempt for the bullshit spouted by people on both sides.
One thing this process had done is that people have had a right good look at all aspects of Scottish life, if they carry that on after the vote and call those responsible to account it can't be a bad thing.
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
I've never worked in the public sector and I'm voting YES. My experience is that technology companies in the South of England get funded for total nonsense due to proximity to decision makers but companies in the North of England or Scotland struggle to get funded even when they have great technology. Irish technology companies on the other hand had good access to money from the financial sector in Dublin: I think independence and a subsequent refocusing of investment from Scotland's banks on opportunities in Scotland rather than London will be very positive for the Scottish economy.
> By contrast most of my other Scottish relatives who have worked in the private sector are pretty firmly in support of maintaining the Union.
I've never worked in the public sector and I'm voting YES. My experience is that technology companies in the South of England get funded for total nonsense due to proximity to decision makers but companies in the North of England or Scotland struggle to get funded even when they have great technology. Irish technology companies on the other hand had good access to money from the financial sector in Dublin: I think independence and a subsequent refocusing of investment from Scotland's banks on opportunities in Scotland rather than London will be very positive for the Scottish economy.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
I am sorry Tom but I completely disagree with your argument. The reason that tech companies don't really exist north of London is because there aren't very many highly skilled people to work in those companies. It is much easier to recruit in London than elsewhere and as a result people and companies pool in the tech hotspots. You can give a tech company all the money in the world to relocate to Scotland, but they won't grow because they can't get the staff. I can tell you from first hand experience that this is the problem tech companies in Manchester and Cardiff face.
The only reason Ireland boomed was because of an exceedingly favourable tax regime. I think Scotland needs to be very careful before setting out down a similar path because we all know that the happy boom turned into an exceedingly miserable bust. An independent Scotland will not necessarily have a sympathetic rUK or Europe to bail it out should it make the same mistake twice.
I am sorry Tom but I completely disagree with your argument. The reason that tech companies don't really exist north of London is because there aren't very many highly skilled people to work in those companies. It is much easier to recruit in London than elsewhere and as a result people and companies pool in the tech hotspots. You can give a tech company all the money in the world to relocate to Scotland, but they won't grow because they can't get the staff. I can tell you from first hand experience that this is the problem tech companies in Manchester and Cardiff face.
The only reason Ireland boomed was because of an exceedingly favourable tax regime. I think Scotland needs to be very careful before setting out down a similar path because we all know that the happy boom turned into an exceedingly miserable bust. An independent Scotland will not necessarily have a sympathetic rUK or Europe to bail it out should it make the same mistake twice.
In reply to ByEek:
ha! chicken and egg?
If you're suggesting that all skilled workers in London are FROM London then that might make sense, but they're not. Many of the skilled workers MOVE to London because that's where the jobs are.
> The reason that tech companies don't really exist north of London is because there aren't very many highly skilled people to work in those companies. It is much easier to recruit in London than elsewhere and as a result people and companies pool in the tech hotspots.
ha! chicken and egg?
If you're suggesting that all skilled workers in London are FROM London then that might make sense, but they're not. Many of the skilled workers MOVE to London because that's where the jobs are.
In reply to professionalwreckhead:
What are you talking about? Of course skilled workers move to London. Where did I suggest otherwise? Do people really take life so literally?
> If you're suggesting that all skilled workers in London are FROM London then that might make sense, but they're not. Many of the skilled workers MOVE to London because that's where the jobs are.
What are you talking about? Of course skilled workers move to London. Where did I suggest otherwise? Do people really take life so literally?
In reply to sweenyt:
I think the genie is out the bottle now and whilst some No voters appear to be showing symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome, a lot of people, on both sides, are thinking about politics and engaging in the debate. This will not go away on the 19th September just because they voted the day before. We are in for interesting times!
I think the genie is out the bottle now and whilst some No voters appear to be showing symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome, a lot of people, on both sides, are thinking about politics and engaging in the debate. This will not go away on the 19th September just because they voted the day before. We are in for interesting times!
In reply to ByEek:
If you don't think tech companies exist north of London you must be living on the moon. London is attracting new media internet dross with no real technology or sustainable advantage: 'oh goody we can order pizzas on our phone' is about the limit of 'silicon roundabout'. The actual high tech is in Cambridge, Oxford, Bristol and Central Scotland.
> I am sorry Tom but I completely disagree with your argument. The reason that tech companies don't really exist north of London is because there aren't very many highly skilled people to work in those companies.
If you don't think tech companies exist north of London you must be living on the moon. London is attracting new media internet dross with no real technology or sustainable advantage: 'oh goody we can order pizzas on our phone' is about the limit of 'silicon roundabout'. The actual high tech is in Cambridge, Oxford, Bristol and Central Scotland.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
There we go again. Why do people always seem to take life so literally? I never said tech companies don't exist north of London. However, you find me one tech company north of London that hasn't had difficulties recruiting people in the last few years. It iss hard work recruiting people in London. It is even harder elsewhere, especially if you are looking for specific skill sets or the top 5% of talent.
The north of England and Scotland do not have a critical mass of tech companies and so such areas are not particularly attractive to potential candidates as they will be limiting their careers opportunities.
This is why Cambridge is a biomedical hotspot and why Manchester is a media hotspot. It is basic economics. Like minded companies move into the same area so that they can share and attract talent.
> If you don't think tech companies exist north of London you must be living on the moon.
There we go again. Why do people always seem to take life so literally? I never said tech companies don't exist north of London. However, you find me one tech company north of London that hasn't had difficulties recruiting people in the last few years. It iss hard work recruiting people in London. It is even harder elsewhere, especially if you are looking for specific skill sets or the top 5% of talent.
The north of England and Scotland do not have a critical mass of tech companies and so such areas are not particularly attractive to potential candidates as they will be limiting their careers opportunities.
This is why Cambridge is a biomedical hotspot and why Manchester is a media hotspot. It is basic economics. Like minded companies move into the same area so that they can share and attract talent.
Post edited at 12:54
In reply to sweenyt:
To respond to the Defence aspect of the OP, I don't think the SNP really has any intention of having a serious Armed Services at all. I expect it will be more like Ireland's Defence Forces.
Scotland will rely on the UK bailing them out, as it will be in the UK's interest to do so.
And let's face it, it would save Scotland a shed load of cash to do so.
To respond to the Defence aspect of the OP, I don't think the SNP really has any intention of having a serious Armed Services at all. I expect it will be more like Ireland's Defence Forces.
Scotland will rely on the UK bailing them out, as it will be in the UK's interest to do so.
And let's face it, it would save Scotland a shed load of cash to do so.
In reply to sweenyt: Clearly he knows nothing, like Mr Rehn
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11071043/Independent-Scotland-...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11071043/Independent-Scotland-...
In reply to sweenyt: Clearly he knows nothing, like Mr Rehn
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11071043/Independent-Scotland-...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11071043/Independent-Scotland-...
In reply to ByEek:
Have to say that this is also my experience working for an IT company in N Wales - desperately difficult to attract anyone with the right skills and to retain people for any length of time.
> There we go again. Why do people always seem to take life so literally? I never said tech companies don't exist north of London. However, you find me one tech company north of London that hasn't had difficulties recruiting people in the last few years. It iss hard work recruiting people in London. It is even harder elsewhere, especially if you are looking for specific skill sets or the top 5% of talent.
> The north of England and Scotland do not have a critical mass of tech companies and so such areas are not particularly attractive to potential candidates as they will be limiting their careers opportunities.
> This is why Cambridge is a biomedical hotspot and why Manchester is a media hotspot. It is basic economics. Like minded companies move into the same area so that they can share and attract talent.
Have to say that this is also my experience working for an IT company in N Wales - desperately difficult to attract anyone with the right skills and to retain people for any length of time.
In reply to Sir Chasm:
Have you got anything to back up that this general 'knows nothing'? Unless I am missing the point the link you posted has no comparable links to the issue of the military?
Have you got anything to back up that this general 'knows nothing'? Unless I am missing the point the link you posted has no comparable links to the issue of the military?
In reply to blurty:
That's close to what I thought too, and the main reason I posted in the first place. I'm English and have relatively little invested in whether it is a yes or no vote. So long as I can still visit, and my Scottish mates can still visit me I'll be pretty relaxed about the outcome.
However I do believe that if Scotland does gain independence then they have a responsibility (well, at least a theoretical one) to ensure that they can be pretty much self sufficient. I'm not suggesting that all ties with the rUK be cut - after all international cooperation is currently a good thing (IMHO) and it would seem daft to not work together with our closest neighbour. Yet I do think it is a bit out of order, that because they have the British armed forces just next door, Scotland isn't likely to prioritise a defence force. As you quite rightly point out, the rUK will of course do what we can to help and yes, this will save Scotland a lot of money.
I just don't like the expectancy that the rUK will provide where necessary (granted this is all unconfirmed and we may be totally surprised by what occurs.... but I hope you get my point)
> Scotland will rely on the UK bailing them out, as it will be in the UK's interest to do so.
> And let's face it, it would save Scotland a shed load of cash to do so.
That's close to what I thought too, and the main reason I posted in the first place. I'm English and have relatively little invested in whether it is a yes or no vote. So long as I can still visit, and my Scottish mates can still visit me I'll be pretty relaxed about the outcome.
However I do believe that if Scotland does gain independence then they have a responsibility (well, at least a theoretical one) to ensure that they can be pretty much self sufficient. I'm not suggesting that all ties with the rUK be cut - after all international cooperation is currently a good thing (IMHO) and it would seem daft to not work together with our closest neighbour. Yet I do think it is a bit out of order, that because they have the British armed forces just next door, Scotland isn't likely to prioritise a defence force. As you quite rightly point out, the rUK will of course do what we can to help and yes, this will save Scotland a lot of money.
I just don't like the expectancy that the rUK will provide where necessary (granted this is all unconfirmed and we may be totally surprised by what occurs.... but I hope you get my point)
In reply to sweenyt:
Just on the point of the original post..A Former UK ambassador to NATO has stated she feels
an independant Scotland would be welcomed into NATO, neither the UK nor rUK would be any less secure: she is voting yes by the way...
http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-scots...
I now await the next damoclean prophecy from the unionists. Perhaps Smaug, the great dragon from "The Hobbit" plans to pay Independant Scotland a visit to set fire to the oil! Well what's left of it, of course, as it's due to all run out September 19th...
Just on the point of the original post..A Former UK ambassador to NATO has stated she feels
an independant Scotland would be welcomed into NATO, neither the UK nor rUK would be any less secure: she is voting yes by the way...
http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-scots...
I now await the next damoclean prophecy from the unionists. Perhaps Smaug, the great dragon from "The Hobbit" plans to pay Independant Scotland a visit to set fire to the oil! Well what's left of it, of course, as it's due to all run out September 19th...
In reply to sweenyt:
It was a parody of the usual dismissal of any informed opinion which conflict with a voter's settled view. Sorry.
> Have you got anything to back up that this general 'knows nothing'? Unless I am missing the point the link you posted has no comparable links to the issue of the military?
It was a parody of the usual dismissal of any informed opinion which conflict with a voter's settled view. Sorry.
In reply to sweenyt:
just out of interest... what is protecting scotland right now, at this minute?
no conventional capital ships stationed north of what plymouth?
no nimrods to locate submarines any more (and that's UK wide of course)
no amphibious capability (RMC moved from arbroath)
right now, in scotland, we pretty much have small arms or trident (cake or death anyone)
just out of interest... what is protecting scotland right now, at this minute?
no conventional capital ships stationed north of what plymouth?
no nimrods to locate submarines any more (and that's UK wide of course)
no amphibious capability (RMC moved from arbroath)
right now, in scotland, we pretty much have small arms or trident (cake or death anyone)
In reply to rallymania:
Don't underestimate small arms...
But if country x decides to invade (I know, very unlikely) the fact that the whole of the British armed forces are at the governments disposal to deal with this must surely act as some form of deterrent?
Not to mention that I can get from Bristol to JOG in 12 hours if I stick to the speed limit. I'm pretty sure that means that aircraft and military can get there faster than me. Not to mention that there is a fair whack of the military further north than Bristol. And most of Scotland is further south then JOG!
Don't underestimate small arms...
But if country x decides to invade (I know, very unlikely) the fact that the whole of the British armed forces are at the governments disposal to deal with this must surely act as some form of deterrent?
Not to mention that I can get from Bristol to JOG in 12 hours if I stick to the speed limit. I'm pretty sure that means that aircraft and military can get there faster than me. Not to mention that there is a fair whack of the military further north than Bristol. And most of Scotland is further south then JOG!
In reply to sweenyt:
oh i'm not worried, was just trying to put things into perspective with how they are now
oh i'm not worried, was just trying to put things into perspective with how they are now
In reply to rallymania:
What are all those men in green doing running about inside RM Condor then?
> just out of interest... what is protecting scotland right now, at this minute?
> no amphibious capability (RMC moved from arbroath)
What are all those men in green doing running about inside RM Condor then?
In reply to Roguevfr:
ha, my mistake... old information i still had in my mind!
was i wrong about the other stuff too? (just curious now... it seems i may be losing my google ninja skills)
ha, my mistake... old information i still had in my mind!
was i wrong about the other stuff too? (just curious now... it seems i may be losing my google ninja skills)
In reply to sweenyt:
He's a knob. He can't help it.
His life is so totally invested in the fantasy land that is the non-existent UK constitution that he is blind to reality.
He's a knob. He can't help it.
His life is so totally invested in the fantasy land that is the non-existent UK constitution that he is blind to reality.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Funnily enough I was just pondering how long we had managed to last without resorting to insults/name calling.
Nice work.
Funnily enough I was just pondering how long we had managed to last without resorting to insults/name calling.
Nice work.
In reply to sweenyt:
Oh, thats not an insult, Jim is just posting some historical facts or similar.
> Funnily enough I was just pondering how long we had managed to last without resorting to insults/name calling.
> Nice work.
Oh, thats not an insult, Jim is just posting some historical facts or similar.
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