Advice to keep me and my 3 girls safe

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BuzzI 20 Aug 2014
Right guys and girls, I am a novice when it comes to hill walking and need some general advice about keeping me and my kids safe.

we are quite typical of having all the gear a d no idea....I want to push my kids to achieve and want them to challenge themselves. My mind is quite focussed on setting out for a days trek somewhere in the Lake District very early doors. I want to stand at the foot of a huge hill/mountain and say right....we are going to the top of that to set camp and have lunch...I plan b q/ camping stove meal. I am considering a nights wild camping on the sumit....if allowed

I do not want to put my three girls in harms way....they are aged 10 with twins aged 8.....am I bonkers for trying.....or should I do this!!!

I need general advice on essential kit/ health and safety/suggestions for routes etc........please help and thanks in advance!!!!
 Welsh Kate 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:
When I was out in Snowdonia in May I saw a family camping at a lake in the Carneddau. It was a couple of miles from the roadhead, and they weren't backpacking as such, just walking in with lightweight tents but a load of supplies and spending a couple of days chilling out at the highest lake in Wales. But they clearly had the idea as well as all the gear!

In your boots, and you say you're a novice hillwalker, I'd start off easy, keeping low level in the valleys and walking to a commercial campsite for the night. It'll still be a big adventure for the girls and be much safer for a family new to hillwalking, and there are plenty of basic campsites if you want to keep it simple and more like a wildcamp.

Then learn some navigation. If you can navigate and pick up some basic hill skills you'll be able to keep your girls safe and push onto higher level walks and camps knowing that you know what you're doing. The girls are old enough to learn map reading and basic nav too so you could make it all a family learning experience.

Navigation can be learned through the NNAS navigation scheme (google it) or you could all join a local orienteering club which is a great way to learn. If you've got the time, it's probably worth looking at the new Mountain Training Association course on Hill Skills which will provide you with the basics for exactly what you want to do:
http://www.mountain-training.org/walking/skills-and-awards/hill-and-mountai...

Or if you have a friend or know someone willing to take you out and show you the ropes that's a great way to start.

Best of luck!
Post edited at 00:10
 Scarab9 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

I'd also add that they may be rather put off by a hard steep trek the first time out, especially when not used to it. You don't want to put them off at the start!

Lots of more knowlegable people will be able to recommend routes o. Here
In reply to BuzzI:

If it was me I'd do the wild camping plan with my wife or a friend and do something else with the kids.

Camping gear for 3 kids plus yourself seems like a lot to lug up a big hill especially when there is a fair chance you will also need to carry an 8 year old if they get tired.

My experience is kids love running about and looking at things and climbing on rocks but they are not much interested in walking steadily in a straight line up a path for hours to get to the top of a big hill. They can do a 10k plus walk with 1,000 metres of ascent but it is too far to be fun.

One thing that does work to get kids to do a larger hill is if you go with another family so they have friends to play with.
 jim jones 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

To keep your kids safe you need to be confident in your own level of competence. It's a completely different ball game learning the necessary skills with your mates and enjoying mini epics, to potentially putting your children off the outdoors for life. Why not car camp and go for a modest walk and build your confidence and your children's together? I started modestly with my daughter without expecting too much from her until at the age of 7 she was perfectly happy to walk up Snowdon (via the South ridge) to multiple Munro bashing at 13. I recognised early on she was not keen on rock climbing so never pushed her into it, the important thing is your level of competence; also camping on a summit? Not a good idea really. Start modestly and take plenty of sweets, good luck.
 Hyphin 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

Don't push them "to achieve", just go and enjoy time together outdoors. Even at 10 few kids have the stamina for big hill days.

Dress appropriate for the weather, at this time of year that can be two climates. They are a wee bit higher, but the first dusting of snow is forecast for the Scottish hills; while it's shirt sleeve weather at street level.

Basic navigation / map reading skills are not the dark arts some see them as, but they are important. Not just the dramatic life or death stuff, doubling the length of your walk by heading off down the wrong side can be frightening and dis-spiriting enough to put you all off for life.

There is a small chance that poor decision making could put you all in danger, but more likely just in misery.

If you really don't have any experience best thing to have is someone who has..try local clubs, outdoor education department (may now be an arms length from the local council). Keep an eye on here for folk looking to consolidate learning before assessment for MLT MIA etc.

May seem more challenging but have you thought about climbing, my 10yr old daughter loves that but has no interest in hill-walking. My 14yr old son is now keen on both.

Most important thing is have fun, a good day in the hills is any one you get back from under your own steam.

Take plenty of sweets and chocolate, eat health at sea level lots of sugar and fat at altitude...... though that might be my excuse for gluttony.
 Rob Naylor 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

Assuming this isn't a troll:

I think you're biting off a bit more than you can chew at the moment.

I started taking my kids into the hills when the oldest was 7. But 1 on 1 for summits, until they were a bit older, as handling 3 kids simultaneously in a craggy environment was not something I wanted to do until they'd developed a bit of hill sense for themselves.

Also, as others have said, beware of "pushing them to achieve" and "challenging themselves". I used to cajole the middle one a bit as she tended to not have quite the "summit fever" of the other 2, but we'd turn back wherever we'd got to when it became obvious that she really wouldn't enjoy going all the way (and back). We'd find a turnaround spot with a good view or interesting stream or whatever, and have a break before going back.

I wouldn't have taken them at all if I didn't feel competent to navigate, and already had plenty experience in the hills myself. You really need to keep an eye on things like clothing with kids of that age....getting my oldest to pop a fleece on when we stopped was quite hard because "I'm very warm dad!"...but if he didn't, 10 minutes later he'd be shivering. Kids go from full-on to dead stop very quickly, and you need to be continually alert for signs and symptoms, especially with 3 in tow.

Wild camping on a summit isn't a good idea. They're generally rocky, exposed and not very flat, as well as not having access to water. There are plenty good wild camping sites a way below summits, but again I'd think hard about what gear you need, and who's going to carry it. Kids that age shouldn't really be carrying more than 15-20% of their body weight so for a wild camp YOU would be carrying nearly everything. When my oldest was 10 we did a 4 day wild trek in the Brecon Beacons and I think I ended up with about 23 kg on my back, carrying most of his kit and the food as well as my own. With 3 you'd REALLY be pushing it I reckon.

When we started doing Lakes stuff as a family, the following scenario worked well and was huge fun for the younger ones:

I drove up to Wasdale with the oldest and set up camp. We did a couple of days walking 1-on-1, including several summits. Day 3 my wife brought the younger ones up by train to Ravenglass and then got the "L'il Ratty" steam train up to Dalegarth. Oldest and I walked out from Wasdale over Burnmoor to meet them at Boot, had late lunch there and walked as a family back to camp at Wasdale. The oldest got a good 2-way workout, with a rest, while the younger 2 enjoyed the 1/2 length adventure walking 1 way across Burnmoor, still buzzing from the steam train ride. I think I only had to carry the youngest twice for short sections.

Given your lack of experience, I'd start out with something relatively benign, not involving a wild camp until you've built up some experience. A summit and down in one day is feasible with reasonably fit kids of that age, but with 3 in tow you'd need to pick it carefully with safety in mind.
 BazVee 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

I can remember when I started walking in the Lake District in the scouts at the age of 13, hard work it was and trying to keep up with older lads was difficult. As others have said I can't imagine wild camping at the top of one of the big mountains in the Lakes is going to be much fun for you, due to the amount of gear you will have to carry, neither for them. I wouldn't try to push them to far, just give them enjoyable experiences in the great outdoors, which may encourage them to want to come back as they get older.

What about scaling down your plans, in the lake district the hills above 1,000 feet which will generally be more accessible, would be a good place to start, I googled and found the following list, you need to scroll down to the bottom. http://wainwright-walks.co.uk/wainwrights.html Be careful though because even the smaller hills can have some sections that might require a little bit of scrambling. Probably if you are a novice yourself a walking guide book might also be worthwhile so as to give you some easier circular routes and notes on what you are looking at etc.

I would also caution against taking them out when you can't see anything, low level cloud, heavy rain, etc as there is little fun walking to the top of a hill and not seeing a view. Easiest way to put someone off coming back.

Have fun.
 Carolyn 21 Aug 2014
In reply to Rob Naylor:

I'd agree - best to start slowly, particularly if the adult(s) involved don't have much clue what they're undertaking. Wild camping with kids is perfectly possible (mine are 5&8, and we've taken them both for the last couple of years - with 2 adults), but I wouldn't choose to combine it with a big hill the first time. And if you don't already have lightweight kit, it'd be an awful lot to buy for something they might not like.

I still wouldn't jump straight into a wild camping trip, but if you get that far, probably better to walk up to a tarn, ditch the heavy camping gear, walk up to the summit ans come back down to the tarn to sleep. Better camping sites, less carrying gear.

And starting small doesn't mean they won't want to challenge themselves. Mine demand to be taken "camping in the middle of nowhere", and the little one's current ambition is a direct ascent of Grassmoor front from Lanthwaite Green (those that know it will understand why he's being fobbed off for a year or two....)
 GrahamD 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

at that age, you are far more likely to get a positive response if you did something like the classic hill of Cat Bells from Keswick by ferry. From that you should be able to gauge their enthusiasm. Especially if the weather isn't perfect (and it often isn't !)
 Pete Ford 21 Aug 2014
In reply to Rob Naylor:

'Assuming this isn't a troll':

I'm afraid that's what it seems like to me, got too many troll features for my liking.

Pete

Removed User 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

I agree with all the advice that's been given so far. How about joining in on some of the Lake District National Park Voluntary Ranger led walks. The free guided walks, which range from easy to very hard, take place all over the Lakes National Park and we have lots of children come on them. They are an excellent way for the novice fellwalker to do a walk, safe in the knowledge that they won't get lost. As well as the guided walks, they also offer adult, and children, navigation courses, and lots of other things.

http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/visiting/events

 Billhook 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

You clearly want to ensure they never want to go out with you again!
In reply to BuzzI:

A lot of how the kids develop an interest in the outdoors depends on their early experience; to start off with, they need to feel that you've got this sussed and that dad knows how to keep them safe.

With that in mind, I'd agree with others that you should find a fairly simple objective for the first walk, ideally one with a campsite that you can leave the car at and return to at the end of the day. Kids' imaginations are easily stimulated visually, so finding a small hill with a proper peak would help in this regard.

But what would be a good idea is for you to do the trek first, without the kids. Scope it out, find the way - make fewer navigational errors in front of the kids - pick out some good resting points and make sure it's not too arduous.

Spontaneous adventure with kids takes a lot of planning - and even more gear.

Martin
In reply to Removed Userlorraine1620:

Superb response.

Martin
 Trevers 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

I think it's great that you want to take your kids out into the hills.

As others have said, be wary of 'pushing' them to achieve. They shouldn't be pushed any further than they want to go. It might be an idea to go with more than just one adult, that way if one wants to go back and the others want to push on, you can safely split up.

Remember also that there is no achievement in pushing on through bad weather/failing light to reach the summit, only to need to call mountain rescue out to lead you back down.

Might also be a good idea to have alternative plans in case the weather doesn't look so pleasant. Quite apart from the additional risk that poor conditions pose, your kids won't enjoy it. I remember my parents forcing me along on long hikes through fog and rain as a kid, and I resented every moment of it. A clear bright day with fine views makes a world of difference.
 FesteringSore 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

Not specific advice but by all means keep them safe but DO NOT "wrap them in cotton wool".
J1234 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

Troll
 Ramblin dave 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

Plenty of good advice here. I'd hold off on the wild camping idea until you've got an idea of what stuff you need to be comfortable camping and how much you're happy carrying uphill.

For a day walk, you should be fine on most Lakeland hills if you can read a map (be able to get the map lined up properly with a compass, understand contours, know the difference between a path, a right of way, a stone wall and a parish boundary...) and if you carry waterproofs, a few extra layers and plenty of food and water.

When I was a kid, I didn't give two hoots about beautiful views but wanted something with a interesting way up, lots of rocks to play around on, and a proper summit. Any family trip to the Lake District had to include Harrison's Stickle (via Stickle Gill with the little scrambly bit on the West side of the path below the tarn and the North Rake) or risk open rebellion. Cat Bells was another favourite and we never did Causey Pike or Castle Rock in Borrowdale but I think they would have been popular as well. Although if you're new to hillwalking yourself then it'll take a bit of care to find something that'll provide interest for the kids without getting out of your depth yourself.
BuzzI 21 Aug 2014
In reply to Rob Naylor:

Some good advice Rob..I will take a good look at the route you suggested...my kids obviously mean the eorld and I wouldnt want to go the whole hog on the first day...we will buold up...my map reading is ok...so probably need to push those skills up a bit... the kids are pretty fit and do all manner of sporting things...but take your point about the enjoyment factor! I dont want to do it just once...as for camping on the sumit....its more of a pipe dream...;0)

Thanks for the advice....some real common sense points well raised!!!
BuzzI 21 Aug 2014
In reply to SCrossley:

Nope just a guy wanting a good day I the lakes with my kids!
BuzzI 21 Aug 2014
In reply to Andy Say:

Thank you...will take a look!!!
 Carolyn 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

It's worth remembering there's a difference between being fit, and being able to move efficiently in the mountains - there are a whole host more skills to learn, such as where to put your feet, which sound straightforward enough, but only really come with mileage in the hills. So don't assume that because you or the kids (for example) do lots of sports, or road running, that you won't find a shortish walk in the hills fairly tiring the first few times.
J1234 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

Jolly good, then consider what your children want, if you want them to enjoy it, because I can assure you, if they do not enjoy it, you will not.
I generally used to reckon 1 mile per year of age for a walk, less with more ascent.
Before setting out check the weather forecast, with particular attention to wind speeds, IME strong winds freak small children out because the poor little blighters are lighter.
Place fell and area is super for a first fell or Caw above the Duddon, camping at Turners Hall which is a quite natural with a pub nearby.
 Rob Naylor 21 Aug 2014
In reply to Carolyn:

> It's worth remembering there's a difference between being fit, and being able to move efficiently in the mountains -

Absolutely true. I remember taking a very fit work colleague out for a day in Scotland when I was 2 stones heavier than I am now and nowhere near as fit. He played squash 4 times a week and was like a whippet. I was *way* more hill-fit than him when it came to making steady upward progress on steep ground.
In reply to BuzzI:

Don't try to force them to do too much, or do it to 'toughen them up', like some of the stories here:

http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=594797&v=1

Do it so they will enjoy it. Make the goals realistic, and their goals, not yours.
 Skol 21 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:
A nice option that I did with my 9yr old was in the lakes.
Make sure the forecast is good. We parked at te end of Haweswater, and walked the 45 mins up to Small Water. Plenty of wild camping spots in an atmospheric place. It's relatively sheltered at 1500ft, due to the amphitheatre .
The track is reasonable for kids. We set up camp there, and went up on to High Street, though Mardale Ill bell is a shorter option. At the tarn there is a beach and newts to catch/put back.
Kid had a cracking time, as did I.
I fear that unless we have an Indian Summer, you've left it a bit late

On our second trip there, the weather cramped out and we were able to walk in the dark to camp by the car in less than 30 mins.
Don't underestimate the extra clothing that you need for them. My kid got soaked in the tarn and went through 3 sets.
They soon tire of carrying stuff and a 100 litre pack for yourself should suffice
 Carolyn 22 Aug 2014
In reply to Skol:

LOL - yes, and potentially worth them carrying a spare pair of lightweight shoes (crocs, flip flops) for paddling in streams and tarns for the same reason! Wet boots are just no fun for a 8 year old....
BuzzI 24 Aug 2014
In reply to Skol:

I will take a look at the route...sounds just like what im looking for....I have had some grief on bere for wanting to get the kids outdoors...think most people recon im daft for wanting to take them out and challenge them!

Thanks for the reply!!

I think you may be correct on the weather....but we can still go out for the day!!!! ;0)
 Skol 24 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:
No probs. You should have seen the looks I got when I took my daughter up Snowdon on her 4 th birthday. Lots of head shaking and tuts. Think they were peeved that she was quicker.
The key is not to go if it's windy or wet, keep it short and interesting. Clothing to be adequate for the hills and plenty of spares and food.
Don't let the stewards grind you down
BuzzI 24 Aug 2014
In reply to captain paranoia:

I promise I wont hold a gun to their head and force march them up a hill!!! Lol

I used the word 'push' and maybe should have used the word challenge...I love my kids and dont want to hurt or upset them in anyway hence asking foor advice...I assure you I wont make them do something thy are not comfortable with...but I will challenge and cajole them to achieve!

Thanks for your reply I will check out the link later!

regards

Mark
 steveq 25 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

Just thought I would add some thoughts from my own experience of wild camping with my 5 year old daughter. We've just spent a really fun night in the "Lost Valley" in Glencoe. It had everything she wanted from an "adventure" - it is a scrambly route (no plodding over dull moorland), there are caves to explore, water falls to admire and big mountains all around.

I chose the route because it's not far from the road (it's only a few Km) so if anything did go wrong (e.g. terrible weather) it ain't far to retreat. If the main aim is to go "wild" camping then it's probably best to focus on that rather than also including an epic route march so it doesn't have to be more than a few miles of walking. I also chose a route that I'd done before so I knew it well enough to not have to worry about route finding (still took the map to set a good example). Even though it was a short route it was still physically challenging for her and that meant she got a great sense of satisfaction from getting to the "top". I planned the day so we had loads of time for walking, including rests when she wanted and exploring anything she wanted and we still had loads of time to get the tent sorted before dinner.

Another thing I've found is that because of her height (or lack of it) she finds going downhill more tricky than going up, big steps that can be climbed fairly simply going upwards are very awkward when coming down. Also any loose scree is much worse for her, so I would plan for any descent to take at least as long as the ascent. Slowness is good when the adult has the bulk of the camping gear (my rucsac weighed about 14Kg and bulged at the seams).

Part of the fun for her was being involved in the whole camping process so we had already practiced putting the tent up in the garden so she could "help". I think she'd have been put off if I'd just done everything for her. Similarly, she had a rucsac so she could carry some of her stuff, nothing heavy - she had waterproofs, clothes, water, bowl and mug - it came to about 2Kg which she didn't find hard going. Another part of the fun of camping for small kids comes from adults being laid back and ignoring most of the day-to-day rules, so we didn't pay any attention to normal bedtime, table manners, tidiness or cleanliness, that sort of thing. It's meant to be fun not a trial for the Army. Decent food is also important, my daughter is no fan of dehydrated packet stuff, she doesn't like the texture that much, I suspect most kids are the same. Real food may be heavier but it gets better results.

I also think it's worth being flexible about when you go. I had our trip planned for ages and just waited for a weekend where the weather forecast looked decent and stable. No-one is going to enjoy being soaked to the skin for the whole day, I did enough camping in the rain in my youth to know it can be very miserable. We had some heavy rain whilst walking but we had the right gear so my daughter wasn't fussed and it had stopped before we got to the top so putting up the tent was done in the dry.

I hope all those thoughts gives you some ideas of how to make sure you have a fun trip. If well planned wild camping isn't that difficult and is perfectly safe. I couldn't imagine camping with my kids in the middle of a busy camp site, for me camping is all about escaping to somewhere really wild and enjoying an adventure.
 ogreville 25 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

Similar to other suggestions here, take a look at the walk you fancy doing with them - let's say a hill in the lakes - 400m up and 6km walk to start with.
Take them on a sat afternoon walk across the town/city. Kit them up, fill your rucksack (you'll be carrying everything by the way!!) and plan a walk to a park at the other side of the city for a picnic. Add another 2km since it will all be flat. Make a game of it with them. If they manage this then they'll be ready for the real think. If you get into any difficulties then maybe a few more practice walks in the city.
 Paul Everett 26 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

Not read all the posts but we did this with our daughter aged 7 ish but take the following into consideration.
1. The main thing is to get into the mountains and camp. You do not have to get to the top
2. Chose relatively good weather. A bit of rain does no harm but not so they get soaked.
3. Concentrate on the camping so a max 2 maybe 3 hour walk
4. Do not get ambitious on the cooking. Concentrate on warm drinks or soup. For one night favourite sandwiches and cakes will probably be much better and will avoid carrying lots of gear but tea soup made on a stove is more exciting than a thermos
5. First aid kit and much warmer clothes than you might expect
6 Karrimats or equivalent to insulate from the damp
 climbwhenready 26 Aug 2014
In reply to Paul Everett:

> 4. Do not get ambitious on the cooking. Concentrate on warm drinks or soup. For one night favourite sandwiches and cakes will probably be much better and will avoid carrying lots of gear but tea soup made on a stove is more exciting than a thermos

Mountain House is expensive but delicious (*). My wife and I used them for the first time last week and we think that if/when we have kids, they'll love them - decent food, real novelty experience. Added bonus: very light to carry in.

(*) I mean, it probably tastes better at 2000 feet with no-one around for miles than it would in a dining room...
redsonja 28 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI:

its great that you want to get your kids out on the fells. my sister and I used to go walking quite often with our dad. cat bells was a favourite! its not so high or such a long walk but on short legs it was long enough and with great views. we never bothered about bad weather- growing up in the lakes and on a farm, we were quite used to it! I cant understand how my sister lets her 14 year old daughter sit and play card games on her computer all day, when we spent most of our childhood out of doors! good for you. Im sure your kids will share your enthusiasm
 Rob Exile Ward 28 Aug 2014
In reply to BuzzI: I think parents *challenging* their kids by dragging/driving them up hills is a truly cr*p idea and makes me shudder. You say you don't want to harm your kids; well let them develop their own ambitions and enthusiasms, don't cripple them by imposing yours.

FWIW I've always taken my kids outdoors since they could walk - before, actually - but it has never been as a challenge, it has been something for them to relish and enjoy. Which they still do.


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