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Looking for an assisted braking belay device suitable for half ropes.
The obvious options seem to be the CTech Alpine Up and the Mammut Smart Alpine - has anyone used either and can share their experiences, or have any other suggestions?? I use a variety of ropes of 7.8 to 8.8 mm diameter, for mainly trad.
Thanks in advance!!
The obvious options seem to be the CTech Alpine Up and the Mammut Smart Alpine - has anyone used either and can share their experiences, or have any other suggestions?? I use a variety of ropes of 7.8 to 8.8 mm diameter, for mainly trad.
Thanks in advance!!
In reply to kyaizawa: ive got a edelrid mega jul. I really like it but most ppl seem not too. It just takes a little time to be able to use it well. Really light weight and has lot of uses.
In reply to Ben07:
I've also been using the Mega Jul and rather like it too; but Jim Titt a regular here has been testing them under lab conditions and found that although they are assisted braking, this works at lower impacts while at higher forces they actually have less braking effect than some non-assisted braking belay devices.
Jim will probably see this thread and can explain better than me.
I've also been using the Mega Jul and rather like it too; but Jim Titt a regular here has been testing them under lab conditions and found that although they are assisted braking, this works at lower impacts while at higher forces they actually have less braking effect than some non-assisted braking belay devices.
Jim will probably see this thread and can explain better than me.
In reply to kyaizawa:
Hi, I have been using the Alpine Up with my Beal ropes for the last few months.
I was looking for something like a GriGri but for twins so that abseiling is safer and easier, the Alpine Up certainly does this well but when used as a belay device to protect your lead climber its terrible. Its awkward to feed twin ropes through to give your climber some slack, you cant get the rope through quickly enough to respond to the climbers needs. So when you fail to feed it through fast enough it locks up into brake mode, then its a faff to un brake it.
I will recommend it as an abseil device, it is very controllable, self braking if un attended and the parts you operate when abseiling dont get hot so its comfortable to use but I use an old tubular or my Petzl Reverso 4 when belaying a lead.
Hi, I have been using the Alpine Up with my Beal ropes for the last few months.
I was looking for something like a GriGri but for twins so that abseiling is safer and easier, the Alpine Up certainly does this well but when used as a belay device to protect your lead climber its terrible. Its awkward to feed twin ropes through to give your climber some slack, you cant get the rope through quickly enough to respond to the climbers needs. So when you fail to feed it through fast enough it locks up into brake mode, then its a faff to un brake it.
I will recommend it as an abseil device, it is very controllable, self braking if un attended and the parts you operate when abseiling dont get hot so its comfortable to use but I use an old tubular or my Petzl Reverso 4 when belaying a lead.
In reply to TobyA:
That's food for thought!
I got some mail from GO the other day and saw that they're selling them for 20 quid, I was half tempted to give one a go at that price.
> ... that although they are assisted braking, this works at lower impacts while at higher forces they actually have less braking effect than some non-assisted braking belay devices. ...
That's food for thought!
I got some mail from GO the other day and saw that they're selling them for 20 quid, I was half tempted to give one a go at that price.
In reply to MaranaF:
What diameter ropes? What carabiner?
Click up and alpine up seem up there with the best belay device options at the moment.
What diameter ropes? What carabiner?
Click up and alpine up seem up there with the best belay device options at the moment.
In reply to TobyA:
I liked my Megajul too until I accidentally dropped it somewhere at Slipstones and went back to my old buggette. It's still there for someone to claim!!
I liked my Megajul too until I accidentally dropped it somewhere at Slipstones and went back to my old buggette. It's still there for someone to claim!!
In reply to TobyA:
Can we please have more data on the above?
> I've also been using the Mega Jul and rather like it too; but Jim Titt a regular here has been testing them under lab conditions and found that although they are assisted braking, this works at lower impacts while at higher forces they actually have less braking effect than some non-assisted braking belay devices.
> Jim will probably see this thread and can explain better than me.
Can we please have more data on the above?
In reply to needvert:
Beal Cobra 8.6 and the carabina supplied with the Alpine Up. They insist you use the one they supply to ensure it works as the diameter of the carab is important to the jamming of the rope.
Beal Cobra 8.6 and the carabina supplied with the Alpine Up. They insist you use the one they supply to ensure it works as the diameter of the carab is important to the jamming of the rope.
In reply to Nicola Ciancaglini:
Jim sent me graphs where he had plotted the difference, but it's his work not mine to share. Hopefully he'll see this and explain in more detail and accuracy than I had done!
Jim sent me graphs where he had plotted the difference, but it's his work not mine to share. Hopefully he'll see this and explain in more detail and accuracy than I had done!
In reply to kyaizawa:
I quite like the Alpine Up and Mega/Micro Jul.
I have a review of assisted braking devices on my blog here:
http://larsonweb.com/blog/?p=975
I quite like the Alpine Up and Mega/Micro Jul.
I have a review of assisted braking devices on my blog here:
http://larsonweb.com/blog/?p=975
In reply to Nicola Ciancaglini:
You have to wade through a veritable river of excrement to read it, but a number of Jim's graphs and comments are in the Mountain Project thread http://www.mountainproject.com/v/edelrid-megajul-belay-device/109133730__1 .
I for one hope he organizes it all and writes it up. There are some important and unintuitive considerations that everyone adopting such devices needs to understand and right now it seems that Jim is the only person in the climbing world who has a handle on this.
In reply to MaranaF:
Well, for what it is worth, I think the Alpine Up is by far the best of the lot for true half rope belaying, and I can't imagine what MaranaF was doing to get those results. The only things I can think of is either using ropes that are too fat (above 9.5mm I think handling deteriorates) and/or substituting an inappropriate carabiner for the one supplied.
Well, maybe a third way, but it would be a problem for all the assisted lockers. If all of the free rope is hanging down the face, not piled on a ledge or flaked over the tie-in, then there could be enough rope weight to lock up any of the devices. But for various reasons, you don't want your ropes hanging free down the face anyway so this shouldn't be an issue.
When it comes to feeding slack, the Alpine Up is definitely the best, and the only one that doesn't require you to partially immobilize the brake hand in order to lever the device away from the body. Half rope belaying requires taking in and paying out strands simultaneously, and if the brake hand is stuck levering the device as it is with the Smart Alpine and the Mega/Mini Jul, this get much harder to do, involving frantic and almost comical alternating tugs with a very overworked non-brake hand.
Some people say you don't have to lever the the Smart and Juls if you are careful about how you pump slack. Maybe for a single rope or for twins, but when you have to take in one strand while paying out a second, I don't think you'll to be able to avoid a fair amount of locking with these gadgets. Someone is going to respond that it isn't a problem, but I'd want to hear from the people they are belaying...
You can lock the Alpine Up by pulling down on the brake strand(s), but I find this simple to avoid. (As in, don't pull down on the brake strands when paying out slack.) If you are doing this with the Up, then you are also doing the same thing with an ordinary plate and locking that up too, because the belay hand motions are identical. The difference is that the Up locks more definitively if your technique is faulty in this regard.
If you do accidentally lock the Up, it takes a fraction of a second to punch it away from the body with the heels of both hands, and you're back in business. Not even remotely a faff.
Jim's results say that the assisted locking devices provide less assistance than the good old ATC-XP when subjected to high belay loads. It seems that they lock at relatively low loads but slip more than an XP at high loads. (I even suggested a very speculative explanation for this in the above-referenced thread.) The only graph from Jim I've seen that includes the Alpine Up is for 7.8mm twins. In that case the MegaJul performs poorly and the Alpine Up is clearly the best. The results Jim posted for other rope diameters suggest that you can't necessarily infer the relative performance of these devices with a particular diameter from the performances with other diameters, so some more information is needed about the Up.
> Can we please have more data...
You have to wade through a veritable river of excrement to read it, but a number of Jim's graphs and comments are in the Mountain Project thread http://www.mountainproject.com/v/edelrid-megajul-belay-device/109133730__1 .
I for one hope he organizes it all and writes it up. There are some important and unintuitive considerations that everyone adopting such devices needs to understand and right now it seems that Jim is the only person in the climbing world who has a handle on this.
In reply to MaranaF:
> The Alpine Up...when used as a belay device to protect your lead climber its terrible. Its awkward to feed twin ropes through to give your climber some slack, you cant get the rope through quickly enough to respond to the climbers needs. So when you fail to feed it through fast enough it locks up into brake mode, then its a faff to un brake it.
Well, for what it is worth, I think the Alpine Up is by far the best of the lot for true half rope belaying, and I can't imagine what MaranaF was doing to get those results. The only things I can think of is either using ropes that are too fat (above 9.5mm I think handling deteriorates) and/or substituting an inappropriate carabiner for the one supplied.
Well, maybe a third way, but it would be a problem for all the assisted lockers. If all of the free rope is hanging down the face, not piled on a ledge or flaked over the tie-in, then there could be enough rope weight to lock up any of the devices. But for various reasons, you don't want your ropes hanging free down the face anyway so this shouldn't be an issue.
When it comes to feeding slack, the Alpine Up is definitely the best, and the only one that doesn't require you to partially immobilize the brake hand in order to lever the device away from the body. Half rope belaying requires taking in and paying out strands simultaneously, and if the brake hand is stuck levering the device as it is with the Smart Alpine and the Mega/Mini Jul, this get much harder to do, involving frantic and almost comical alternating tugs with a very overworked non-brake hand.
Some people say you don't have to lever the the Smart and Juls if you are careful about how you pump slack. Maybe for a single rope or for twins, but when you have to take in one strand while paying out a second, I don't think you'll to be able to avoid a fair amount of locking with these gadgets. Someone is going to respond that it isn't a problem, but I'd want to hear from the people they are belaying...
You can lock the Alpine Up by pulling down on the brake strand(s), but I find this simple to avoid. (As in, don't pull down on the brake strands when paying out slack.) If you are doing this with the Up, then you are also doing the same thing with an ordinary plate and locking that up too, because the belay hand motions are identical. The difference is that the Up locks more definitively if your technique is faulty in this regard.
If you do accidentally lock the Up, it takes a fraction of a second to punch it away from the body with the heels of both hands, and you're back in business. Not even remotely a faff.
Jim's results say that the assisted locking devices provide less assistance than the good old ATC-XP when subjected to high belay loads. It seems that they lock at relatively low loads but slip more than an XP at high loads. (I even suggested a very speculative explanation for this in the above-referenced thread.) The only graph from Jim I've seen that includes the Alpine Up is for 7.8mm twins. In that case the MegaJul performs poorly and the Alpine Up is clearly the best. The results Jim posted for other rope diameters suggest that you can't necessarily infer the relative performance of these devices with a particular diameter from the performances with other diameters, so some more information is needed about the Up.
Post edited at 08:03
In reply to rgold:
Thanks, that was very informative and helpful. It's unintuitive, and I'd like to hear what the manufacturers have to say in response.
Much as I love my MegaJul, I might have to retire it.
Thanks, that was very informative and helpful. It's unintuitive, and I'd like to hear what the manufacturers have to say in response.
Much as I love my MegaJul, I might have to retire it.
In reply to rgold:
Neither, the carabina is the one supplied, i did mention that I recognize the importance of using the right one and Beal Cobra, 8.6mm ropes. I do know what I am doing.
You mean 'take both hands off the brake and mess with it for a second' Thats what I call a faff.
Do you work for CT?
> Well, for what it is worth, I think the Alpine Up is by far the best of the lot for true half rope belaying, and I can't imagine what MaranaF was doing to get those results. The only things I can think of is either using ropes that are too fat (above 9.5mm I think handling deteriorates) and/or substituting an inappropriate carabiner for the one supplied.
Neither, the carabina is the one supplied, i did mention that I recognize the importance of using the right one and Beal Cobra, 8.6mm ropes. I do know what I am doing.
> If you do accidentally lock the Up, it takes a fraction of a second to punch it away from the body with the heels of both hands, and you're back in business. Not even remotely a faff.
You mean 'take both hands off the brake and mess with it for a second' Thats what I call a faff.
Do you work for CT?
In reply to kyaizawa:
ive used both the megajul and the alpine smart
both are great. however the smart is far easier to use in guide mode. the megajul is probably the hardest to use in guide mode. my arms get a pump pulling up slack on a megajul in guide mode whereas other guide plate require far less effort.
i now carry a megajul and a gigi for my multi-pitch needs
ive used both the megajul and the alpine smart
both are great. however the smart is far easier to use in guide mode. the megajul is probably the hardest to use in guide mode. my arms get a pump pulling up slack on a megajul in guide mode whereas other guide plate require far less effort.
i now carry a megajul and a gigi for my multi-pitch needs
In reply to MaranaF:
No, you don't take your hands off the brake at all. Unlocking is super fast and trivial to do as I described it, and never compromises braking function. I guess, like many other things, faffing is in the eye of the beholder.
Nope, I don't work for CT. But I've spent some time trying out different assisted locking devices. They're all fine for single ropes (except have a look at Jim's results), but when it comes to half-rope handling I'm convinced that anything that ties up the brake hand in order to pump out slack is inferior.
Some folks just don't get along with some gadgets. If anyone is interested, read some other reviews; I'm far from the only one who has found the Alpine Up to handle very well.
> You mean 'take both hands off the brake and mess with it for a second' Thats what I call a faff.
>
> Do you work for CT?
>
> Do you work for CT?
No, you don't take your hands off the brake at all. Unlocking is super fast and trivial to do as I described it, and never compromises braking function. I guess, like many other things, faffing is in the eye of the beholder.
Nope, I don't work for CT. But I've spent some time trying out different assisted locking devices. They're all fine for single ropes (except have a look at Jim's results), but when it comes to half-rope handling I'm convinced that anything that ties up the brake hand in order to pump out slack is inferior.
Some folks just don't get along with some gadgets. If anyone is interested, read some other reviews; I'm far from the only one who has found the Alpine Up to handle very well.
Post edited at 17:36
In reply to kyaizawa:
Something I learnt is not to rely too much on peoples personnel experience, I had no trouble with one particular device but after a conversation on here went back and researched and found a whole bunch of problems.
Anyway being a hypocrite here you go, I use the Mammut Smart and find in pretty friendly device. The Mega Jul on the other hand had too much resistance paying out slack and rather ominously the brake function wouldn't work on abseil or would lock up fully with a slightly fatter rope.
Something I learnt is not to rely too much on peoples personnel experience, I had no trouble with one particular device but after a conversation on here went back and researched and found a whole bunch of problems.
Anyway being a hypocrite here you go, I use the Mammut Smart and find in pretty friendly device. The Mega Jul on the other hand had too much resistance paying out slack and rather ominously the brake function wouldn't work on abseil or would lock up fully with a slightly fatter rope.
In reply to rgold:
I totally agree with the above. In fact, I like the Up(s) exactly because I don't have to touch them if not for unlocking them.
I agree with the above too. Before buying anything one should always ask himself, "do I really need it?" As for the Alpine Up, there is no doubt, imo, that it takes some time and effort to adjust to how it works. Is it worth it? It depends on how much one needs assisted braking with half ropes.
Using the Up by the book is only the starting point. For instance pushing it up with the heels of both hands to unlock it (without dropping the braking ends of the ropes) it's exactly how I do it and it's not in the manual. When lowering off it's a lot easier to control the speed if you gently (GENTLY) push the device forward. Super easy. And it's not in the manual. And so on.
I also don't think it can be questioned the fact that a Reverso or an ATC Guide or even just a plate and a tube, are a lot simpler and faster to handle on the wall. Finally, there is always the subjective factor: if someone doesn't like something, so be it. Thanks god we're all different
For what it counts, from a design point of view, I think the Mega Jul is really cool. Every time I see it I think it's a little design marvel. Whatever weakness it had, they fixed it now (or so they claim). Lab tests are lab tests. We always have to confront the reality, my worst ever falls were nowhere near a factor 2. It's always interesting to see the data and all tests nonetheless, thanks rgold for posting that link.
Nic
> when it comes to half-rope handling I'm convinced that anything that ties up the brake hand in order to pump out slack is inferior.
I totally agree with the above. In fact, I like the Up(s) exactly because I don't have to touch them if not for unlocking them.
> Some folks just don't get along with some gadgets
I agree with the above too. Before buying anything one should always ask himself, "do I really need it?" As for the Alpine Up, there is no doubt, imo, that it takes some time and effort to adjust to how it works. Is it worth it? It depends on how much one needs assisted braking with half ropes.
Using the Up by the book is only the starting point. For instance pushing it up with the heels of both hands to unlock it (without dropping the braking ends of the ropes) it's exactly how I do it and it's not in the manual. When lowering off it's a lot easier to control the speed if you gently (GENTLY) push the device forward. Super easy. And it's not in the manual. And so on.
I also don't think it can be questioned the fact that a Reverso or an ATC Guide or even just a plate and a tube, are a lot simpler and faster to handle on the wall. Finally, there is always the subjective factor: if someone doesn't like something, so be it. Thanks god we're all different
For what it counts, from a design point of view, I think the Mega Jul is really cool. Every time I see it I think it's a little design marvel. Whatever weakness it had, they fixed it now (or so they claim). Lab tests are lab tests. We always have to confront the reality, my worst ever falls were nowhere near a factor 2. It's always interesting to see the data and all tests nonetheless, thanks rgold for posting that link.
Nic
In reply to rgold:
That was an... interesting thread but some good stuff in there.
Having looked at the graphs, I would strongly avoid using my (brand new, unused, £20 from GO) Megajul for 7.8mm ropes, but for everything else it seems to compare reasonably to my previous Reverso (which I accidentally threw in the sea) until you get to very high braking forces, so I am not overly concerned. I am used to a Bug anyway which is probably not the 'grabbiest' of devices.
In fact it is better than a Reverso on 8.5mm for all reasonable braking forces, better on a single 9mm until ~17kg (acceptable?) and nearly as good as an ATC XP on 10mm (no Reverso comparison). So not exactly a crisis? On 10mm it should hold nearly double my weight without at zero hand force, so abseiling on my 10.2mm single should be fine
> You have to wade through a veritable river of excrement to read it, but a number of Jim's graphs and comments are in the Mountain Project thread http://www.mountainproject.com/v/edelrid-megajul-belay-device/109133730__1 .
That was an... interesting thread but some good stuff in there.
Having looked at the graphs, I would strongly avoid using my (brand new, unused, £20 from GO) Megajul for 7.8mm ropes, but for everything else it seems to compare reasonably to my previous Reverso (which I accidentally threw in the sea) until you get to very high braking forces, so I am not overly concerned. I am used to a Bug anyway which is probably not the 'grabbiest' of devices.
In fact it is better than a Reverso on 8.5mm for all reasonable braking forces, better on a single 9mm until ~17kg (acceptable?) and nearly as good as an ATC XP on 10mm (no Reverso comparison). So not exactly a crisis? On 10mm it should hold nearly double my weight without at zero hand force, so abseiling on my 10.2mm single should be fine
Post edited at 18:23
In reply to kyaizawa:
I just went back and checked my original reply to this... I dont think I made it clear; I like CT's Alpine Up! I just dont think its great as a belay device and prefer to use my Reverso for that bit of the climb.
The Alpine Up's abseil performance is great and hugely confidence inspiring.
I just went back and checked my original reply to this... I dont think I made it clear; I like CT's Alpine Up! I just dont think its great as a belay device and prefer to use my Reverso for that bit of the climb.
The Alpine Up's abseil performance is great and hugely confidence inspiring.
In reply to Nicola Ciancaglini:
There is no facility on UKC to present graphic illustrations or tabular information so you´ll have to go to Mountain Project.
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Can we please have more data on the above?
>
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Can we please have more data on the above?
There is no facility on UKC to present graphic illustrations or tabular information so you´ll have to go to Mountain Project.
On the topic of breaking forces, is an ATC-G and an ATC-XP similar?
And is the often said munter having relatively high stopping power still true given the statement was probably made in relation to the original ATC?
This is an interesting thread.
And is the often said munter having relatively high stopping power still true given the statement was probably made in relation to the original ATC?
This is an interesting thread.
In reply to needvert:
I have used both as main belay devices for last year - I would say there's not difference between them in terms of braking (not breaking, I suppose?). The Guide is completely the same design with some added features which do not affect simple belaying.
I have used both as main belay devices for last year - I would say there's not difference between them in terms of braking (not breaking, I suppose?). The Guide is completely the same design with some added features which do not affect simple belaying.
In reply to PPP:
Good to know , having never seen a XP wasnt sure if there were notable geometric differences.
Good to know , having never seen a XP wasnt sure if there were notable geometric differences.
In reply to jimtitt:
Just had a skim of your Belay Device Theory, Testing and Strength.
As I progress in my climbing career, using a HMS is becoming ever more common.
Just had a skim of your Belay Device Theory, Testing and Strength.
As I progress in my climbing career, using a HMS is becoming ever more common.
In reply to jimtitt:
?
HMS Krab?
> (In reply to needvert)
>
> The HMS is the most powerful of the normal braking devices.
>
> The HMS is the most powerful of the normal braking devices.
?
HMS Krab?
In reply to Ffion Blethyn:
HMS is the german name of the knot (aka Italian or Munter Hitch)
the krab is designed to accommodate the HMS knot hence the name
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munter_hitch
HMS is the german name of the knot (aka Italian or Munter Hitch)
the krab is designed to accommodate the HMS knot hence the name
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munter_hitch
In reply to lithos:
Thanks! I'll have a read of the link.
I have previously wondered why HMS krabs are named such.
(Might have known it was Germanic, they seem to like long descriptive names for things; like SDS drills "Steck-Dreh-Sitz" meaning Insert-Twist-Stay)
Ah ha!
HMS - Halbmastwurfsicherung, meaning half clove hitch belay.
Easy for you to say!
Thanks! I'll have a read of the link.
I have previously wondered why HMS krabs are named such.
(Might have known it was Germanic, they seem to like long descriptive names for things; like SDS drills "Steck-Dreh-Sitz" meaning Insert-Twist-Stay)
Ah ha!
HMS - Halbmastwurfsicherung, meaning half clove hitch belay.
Easy for you to say!
Post edited at 10:56
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Certainly in practice with 8.5 ropes I gave found no issues with the megajuls holding power. I agree that I takes a little adaptation, but given the low bulk and weight I think it's worth it. The only real issue is the guide mode. Not sure if there are technique fixes but it is hard work pulling in and the reverso is easier in practice.
Certainly in practice with 8.5 ropes I gave found no issues with the megajuls holding power. I agree that I takes a little adaptation, but given the low bulk and weight I think it's worth it. The only real issue is the guide mode. Not sure if there are technique fixes but it is hard work pulling in and the reverso is easier in practice.
Post edited at 13:12
In reply to steveshaking:
The Reverso in guide mode is nice with halves but an absolute PITA with a 10mm single... hopefully the megajul isn't even worse :P
> Not sure if there are technique fixes but it is hard work pulling in and the reverso is easier in practice.
The Reverso in guide mode is nice with halves but an absolute PITA with a 10mm single... hopefully the megajul isn't even worse :P
In reply to andrewmcleod:
I have only used the reverso with 8.5s or less in guide and found it fine. To be fair to the Mega jul I have only used it once in guide and it wasn't an ideal set up, i'm certainly going to give it another shot. I also think its bina specific. While some people have issues with the thing I think its clever and reasonably priced. The alternatives are much more bulky and expensive. That's what makes the Mega Jul worth getting used to.
I have only used the reverso with 8.5s or less in guide and found it fine. To be fair to the Mega jul I have only used it once in guide and it wasn't an ideal set up, i'm certainly going to give it another shot. I also think its bina specific. While some people have issues with the thing I think its clever and reasonably priced. The alternatives are much more bulky and expensive. That's what makes the Mega Jul worth getting used to.
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