Stages Power meter

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 woolsack 11 Apr 2014
Anyone using a Stages power meter?

Completely undecided which is best but swaying this way to be able to use it easily over two bikes (once I swap them to the same length crank arms)

Just want to know if anyone has had any problems. Seems to have a pretty clean bill of health
 Bob 11 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

Andy (of this parish) has one. I think he's had a few problems and has had to get it replaced on more than one occasion. Not sure if he's on-line ATM, but he'll no doubt advise you better if and when he does appear.

I saw that there was a problem with some units having water ingress which is surprising as they were developed in a damp climate rather than the usual dry Californian heat.
 sleavesley 11 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

I too was looking at a stages for later on in the year or when I have available cash to purchase. So would be good to hear experiences.
 Loughan 11 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

Allow me to step in, I have a Shimano 105 Stages PM.

In principal I like the idea and have no problem with the whole one leg measuring thing. DC rainmaker did some solid power testing against other power measuring units and I was convinced by the results.

Sadly it has fallen down on a couple of points.
The initial one I received drained batteries and eventually failed. No biggie as the replacement solved that however what was happening on the first one is also happening on the second one...

From some on-line poking it seems that some units have problems receiving the data and drop the signal. I have a 910xt and out of many rides I haven't had one complete ride where the signal was continuously received. This is hugely frustrating. I'm currently trying some turbo testing to see if I can do anything to get a stable signal. I really don't want to invest in getting another unit just to receive data and there seems to be a slight admission from Garmin that it's their units not Stages that are the problem. Garmin's vector system is apparently having the same issue.

So, my questions are:
Do you really need power and I mean really or are you just poking about because it's half affordable? If so then I suggest saving up double and ordering yourself a lovely UK handmade steel steed. It'll make you smile more than seeing your power numbers go flat which just makes you angry, and that's not why we ride bikes.

Are you really using heart rate and rate of exertion fully, these are pretty good and while power can add to it there are plenty of very good riders who've never touched a power meter

What's your device for gathering data? If it's a handlebar fixed job like a Garmin 500 you *might* be ok, if it's a watch type you might be out of luck - who knows! You're at the mercy of Stages and Garmin getting their act together. I can't comment on other head unit manufacturers though.

Think legacy, I've just seen the new 105 come out but I'm stuck on the old design. Not a problem just now or for the next couple of years but what do I do when I want to upgrade. At least pedals can be moved but then that's £1,200 - see lovely UK handmade steel frame again.

In conclusion
If you have money to buy, time to iron out issues, platform independent and think you really will benefit from power then do it... and please let me know how you get on
OP woolsack 11 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

I want power because I'm spending a lot of time trying to train for TT's and road races and kind of fishing around in the dark. I use a Garmin 500 which gives me a certain amount of data but adding power to the mix would be that next step. Heartrate is good up to a point but I want the whole picture.
I have enough bikes already!

Powertap is the other option. I bought a broken SL+ wheel (cheap) but I have it apart at the moment and cannot fathom out why it isn't giving a signal to either the Garmin or to the Powertap hear unit. The UK distributor want £400 for a new torque tube if I can't fix it hence me looking at Stages as an easily portable option between bikes
 Loughan 11 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

How about a coach and see if they can rent you a power meter. That might last you between 6 to 12 months and they'll show you how to get the best from it.

Then the PM market will have developed further, prices reduced and you'll have a 'power' of information from being coached.

For me, spending £600+ on something which might not work? I wouldn't do it...again!
OP woolsack 11 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

My cheapest option is probably stump the £400 and send my Powertap wheel off. They're no longer putting in the useless SL+ torque tube in the Powertap wheels but use the G3 tube which is much more robust. Thing is, my hub is built into a Mavic Open Pro wheel so if I wanted to use power on a TT I've got the wrong wheel

That's why Stages was attractive
 Loughan 11 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

How about contacting these guys to build you a wheel with the hub:
http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/

I almost purchased a pair of 50mm carbon clinchers from them but then realised the moths were flapping around in the piggy bank

In saying that, I grind my teeth as for a few more scheckles I would have had a lovely pair of carbon rims to ride rather than a stupid power meter that doesn't work with the receiver.

The annoying part is the 910xt has been fantastic up until now and it's unfair to lump all the blame at Stages door. It would just be nice if Garmin/Stages made an announcement. How team sky are managing I don't know!
 andy 11 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:
Yep, as Bob says I've got two - one on each bike (I was pissed, and feeling flush...).

I'm on my (thinks...) 4th Ultegra one and 2nd Dura Ace one. And I'm awaiting replacements for both.

I have no problem with it connecting, but every unit I've had has drained batteries - early ones let water in, but now there seems to be something that happenswhen you replace the battery. My last two Ultegra ones (on my winter bike, so the ones I've been using) have been flawless for a month, then the battery's gone. Nowhere near their advertised 200 hours, but 50 or so, so good enough.

Then as soon as I replace the battery it drains a battery per day. I think it loses the ability to switch off - I put a new one in earlier in the week and it immediately started transmitting both Bluetooth (to my phone) and ANT+ (to my Edge) - you're supposed to have to wake it up by turning the crank. 4hrs later it was still transmitting both - and the next day it was flat.

A guy on Tritalk reckons he solves it by reversing the battery (that obviously shorts out the unit), which is what I've tried today on my DA one. I've just got back from a ride, so in a minute I'm going to see if it's still transmitting.

Stages have, to be fair, been absolutely brilliant with replacements - but they don't seem able to find out why this is happening to me - there's a guy in Australia who posts on DC Rainmaker who's also on his 5th unit - so whilst there's obviously thousands of happy customers, there is a fundamental issue that's causing this - but I do feel that in the last couple of weeks I might be getting closer to what's causing it with this "new battery" thing.

I shall now pop outside and see whether it's still transmitting!!

EDIT: Just been outside and it wasn't transmitting - and turning the crank woke it up. However the iOS app (which has a battery indicator) is showing the battery as half full - which is shouldn't be as it was new this morning and has only been out for a 4hr ride.

We shall see tomorrow - but that's actually quite hopeful!
Post edited at 15:42
 Enty 11 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

Hey Col - best advice I've seen on here for years

Do you really need power and I mean really or are you just poking about because it's half affordable? If so then I suggest saving up double and ordering yourself a lovely UK handmade steel steed. It'll make you smile more than seeing your power numbers go flat which just makes you angry, and that's not why we ride bikes.

E
 Loughan 11 Apr 2014
In reply to andy:
> it immediately started transmitting both Bluetooth (to my phone) and ANT+ (to my Edge) - you're supposed to have to wake it up by turning the crank. 4hrs later it was still transmitting both - and the next day it was flat.

So yours won't stop talking and mine can't be arsed. fancy a swap?
 andy 12 Apr 2014
In reply to Loughan:

Just been out and checked - battery flat as a witch's tit - so that's that theory up the swanee...
OP woolsack 12 Apr 2014
In reply to andy:

Powertap it is then
OP woolsack 14 Apr 2014
In reply to andy:

Still not deterred by your experience....

... if you took the battery out after each ride would you say it is a functional and satisfactory product, battery life aside?
 andy 14 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

> Still not deterred by your experience....

> ... if you took the battery out after each ride would you say it is a functional and satisfactory product, battery life aside?

Yep, but I would be slightly nervous about repeatedly taking the battery out, as even the new battery door relies on three plastic tabs to hold it in - I can see that with repeated removal it would be easy to snap one. But simple statistics suggests that you'd be very unlucky to get even one duff one, as there must be thousands and thousands that work just fine.

Just not mine...
 Loughan 14 Apr 2014
In reply to andy:
> Yep, but I would be slightly nervous about repeatedly taking the battery out, as even the new battery door relies on three plastic tabs to hold it in

I would agree with this. While the battery compartment is solid enough I would say it's not been designed for frequent use. I get worried about opening it and damaging it. Would be nice if it was more solid with a slot in the back like many Garmin sensors

Did you see how much a wheel build with the power tap is?
Post edited at 12:55
OP woolsack 14 Apr 2014
In reply to Loughan:

> Did you see how much a wheel build with the power tap is?

Yes, I'm getting itchy credit card fingers
joannelala 16 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

Look at the iBike Newton. As accurate as SRM, much cheaper than Stages, moves easily from bike to bike.
OP woolsack 16 Apr 2014
In reply to joannelala:

Not much use on the turbo though from what I can see?
 andy 16 Apr 2014
In reply to joannelala:

> Look at the iBike Newton. As accurate as SRM, much cheaper than Stages, moves easily from bike to bike.

DC Rainmaker doesn't reckon much to it - "finicky to set up" (so presumably you have to go through that each time you change bike or "road surface" - really?) and recommends Stages at that price point. The whole point of measuring power for me is that it's absolute - whereas I assume the iBike thing uses weight to calculate power - I know for a fact my weight can vary by 3-5lbs over a ride so it all seems a bit flaky to me.
 Bob 16 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

Do you actually need really accurate measurements or do you just want to be able to compare sessions and rides? If the latter then Strava's power estimates aren't too far out, they do vary if it's a windy ride but when I've been out biking with Andy then my Strava estimates aren't too dissimilar to his Stages values.
 andy 16 Apr 2014
In reply to Bob:

> Do you actually need really accurate measurements or do you just want to be able to compare sessions and rides? If the latter then Strava's power estimates aren't too far out, they do vary if it's a windy ride but when I've been out biking with Andy then my Strava estimates aren't too dissimilar to his Stages values.

Mine are though, when I go out without using a power meter - Strava tends to assume quite a lot higher.
OP woolsack 16 Apr 2014
In reply to Bob:

I want something I can see in realtime. I'm not convinced of the calculation based meters, like Andy says there are too many assumptions and variables. So long as the unit, whichever unit, gives repeatable measurements the actual units are academic

Have found a secondhand Power2Max crank set with temp compensation so I'll go with that for now. Bit spooked by Andy's experience with his Stages
 andy 16 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

My latest replacement is at the retailers as of today! So I will soon have #5, and am waiting for #6 (another Ultegra one).

I just really hope that this time someone will take ownership of the faulty one, get it to an engineer and properly find out what's wrong with it - if they tell me I have to recite incantations over it or hang dead mice up in the shed then that's fine - but I just want to know why MINE keep going wrong in such a consistent fashion!
 Bob 16 Apr 2014
In reply to andy:

A search on "How accurate are Strava power estimates" seems to suggest that the estimates are most accurate on climbing segments and not too accurate on long rides where environmental factors (i.e. wind) come in to play.

In effect you need to calibrate or normalise each ride which is what the power meters give you (once you've calibrated them of course). It's a bit of a faff and you need to remember all the details about the ride as well.

In the interests of science (or something like that) I compared two rides I did recently over the same course. The first ride had a headwind on a section that is flattish but generally gently downhill with a tailwind was on the first major climb. The second ride had a strong headwind on the first major climb but the flat/gentle descent section had the tailwind.
Ride 1: avg power - 235W in 1hr12
Ride 2: avg power - 239W in 1hr14

Consistent. In absolute terms they might be incorrect when compared to the values from a power meter but I don't *need* that accuracy (well not for £600). I'm not trying to kid anyone saying I push x Watts per Kilo, it's just a general "I worked harder on that ride than last week".
 Bob 16 Apr 2014
In reply to andy:

Do they keep sending the same one back to you? Given its history if I were Stages I'd be asking to see it and handing you a new one.
 Bob 16 Apr 2014
In reply to woolsack:

Ah, the real time requirement forces you down the power meter path.
 andy 16 Apr 2014
In reply to Bob:

> Do they keep sending the same one back to you? Given its history if I were Stages I'd be asking to see it and handing you a new one.

Nope, they're deffo new ones. This is in fact the first one I've had to send back before I get the new one delivered (this is because Saddleback, the distributor is insisting I go via the retailer because it's "better" - not quite sure who it's better for, mind).

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