In reply to CurlyStevo:
> So I'm sure you think that proves your point whilst I think it proves mine and disproves several of your points.
Not too bothered about whether it proves my point or not. I think he was trying to give a good idea off the top of his head. I think it will be of more use to the O.P than someone like yourself.
> "overlap of the green and silver dragon cams (and indeed between the green and gold) does just allow them to be placed in the same width cracks, although I will concede neither placement is ideal but as mentioned the natural variation you get in most cracks will improve both these placements and they are both just functional."
> Nick confirms this in points 3 & 4
> "
> 3. Yes they do but only by a very small operating window a red size 3 would be the sensible choice.
> 4. By silver I guess you mean size 0 and yes but only by a very small operating window a purple size 1 would be more sensible."
I'm not quite sure what he means by 'operating window', but it's very possible he's referring to the fact that they technically overlap by 3mm. He seems to be using two terms 'usable range' and 'operating window' which is consistent with this view. As in indicated by his earlier *rough* (and I think with a certain size in mind too) estimations of how much a cam should be retracted, 'operating window' and 'usable range' are two different things.
> I'm pretty sure if you asked nick could the OP get away with just green red and gold dragons he would also say no (if he plans to climb routes that generally require active protection) which was my point.
I don't think Nick would say that. So let's not put words into his mouth. The Green, red and gold cam's are perfectly fine for covering a certain spectrum of ranges. Just as you don't need to add the smallest wild country zero to your rack or a friend number 6, you don't necessary need either of the DMM silver cams. However, if you expect 0, 2, 4 to adequately cover all the sizes in between you will be disappointed.
> I'm hopeing now atleast that you don't think that a silver cam in the same placement a green one just fits in to "will definitely rip" (same goes for green to gold)
Perhaps a Silver may work in extremely hard rock in a crack size that a green would get stuck in. But that's a lot of ifs, and 50 quid down the toliet. This is what I have always said. In my opinion, any crack that the green is operatable in, the silver would be too tipped out.
> There is no correct answer to which 3 dragons you should buy although some options are obviously more likely to work than others. Its partially a subjective decision and partially based on the type of routes you climb and what gear they are likely to take and how much you are grade pushing etc etc etc
I think the weight is massively on the 'buy sequentially' side, though there are arguements both ways. Whether to buy 1,2,3 or 2,3,4 etc. that's the harder question.
> I don't really care to continue this discussion any further tbh I'm sure you will want to argue these points to death but I have no more interest in this discussion.
Look, I didn't post this to annoy you. It's purely for the O.P. and others, hence why I didn't reply directly to you. People have heard both our opinions and I thought Nick's opinion was also worth something.
As far as I'm concerned, the only place where we differ is:
You think a placement is 'less than ideal'.
I think a placement is 'less than less than ideal'.
That's it. Would I cram my £50 cam into a crack to save my legs? Damn right I would. But I'd rather not be put in that position in the first place. You have presented the other side well, and I'm sure between us the O.P has been well served.
Post edited at 22:26