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Why has nobody created a double boot with the warmth of a single boot, the only double boots i have found are suitable for 6000m+ making it stupidly warm for what most people would like a single boot for like long trips in the lower mountain ranges (alps, scotland, rocky's). So why dont they exist?
In reply to sebflynn:
Scarpa Alpha's aren't too warm for the Alps or Scotland. Used them in both locations.
Scarpa Alpha's aren't too warm for the Alps or Scotland. Used them in both locations.
In reply to sebflynn:
They used to - back in the 1980s Koflach Ultras were probably the most often seen boot in Scotland for winter climbing. Still have a pair in the cellar.
They used to - back in the 1980s Koflach Ultras were probably the most often seen boot in Scotland for winter climbing. Still have a pair in the cellar.
In reply to sebflynn:
I too used Koflach Ultras until the cuffs disintegrated. Excellent for wet 'n cold |Scotland and the Alps. Koflach are up and running again and produce plastic boots but I don't know whether these are available in the UK.
With modern Gortex lined boots I'm not too sure 'double boots' are of particular use for the conditions/use you describe.
I too used Koflach Ultras until the cuffs disintegrated. Excellent for wet 'n cold |Scotland and the Alps. Koflach are up and running again and produce plastic boots but I don't know whether these are available in the UK.
With modern Gortex lined boots I'm not too sure 'double boots' are of particular use for the conditions/use you describe.
In reply to sebflynn:
What would be the point of having a heavy double boot that is no warmer than a lighter single one?
> Why has nobody created a double boot with the warmth of a single boot, ... So why dont they exist?
What would be the point of having a heavy double boot that is no warmer than a lighter single one?
In reply to sebflynn:
Why would you want a double boot that isn't warm? plastics are terribly uncomfortable, so unless you get the benefit of warmth and you want the increased rigidity, why bother (btw I have scarpa omegas as my main winter climbing boots, brilliant to climb in but horrible to walk in)
Why would you want a double boot that isn't warm? plastics are terribly uncomfortable, so unless you get the benefit of warmth and you want the increased rigidity, why bother (btw I have scarpa omegas as my main winter climbing boots, brilliant to climb in but horrible to walk in)
In reply to sebflynn:
I find this a bit of a strange question. You need a boot that is warm enough for whatever you need it for and for however hot or cold you are. It doesn't need to be a double boot to do that, it just needs to be a boot that suits you. There are hundreds of boots on the market, they cater for all degrees of cold/altitude in combination with all degrees of cold feet/warm feet.
I find this a bit of a strange question. You need a boot that is warm enough for whatever you need it for and for however hot or cold you are. It doesn't need to be a double boot to do that, it just needs to be a boot that suits you. There are hundreds of boots on the market, they cater for all degrees of cold/altitude in combination with all degrees of cold feet/warm feet.
In reply to sebflynn:
They used to be made, I have a pair made by Galibier that I bought in 1972, I think the model was RD but I'm not sure and it isn't written on them. They are all leather, narrow welt like Super-Guides so really good for rock climbing and were supplied with two sorts of inners, one leather and the other a synthetic furry sort for colder conditions. I got them for Bolivia where the advantage was their warmth and the way you could keep the inners warm in your sleeping bag or as a pillow thus avoiding the morning struggle of getting into frozen boots - the outer being just leather with no padding remained flexible even when frozen. I used them for many years after, on another expedition and even on rock climbs in the Alps as they were just as good as single boots for comfort and climbing, until the uppers weren't worth resoling again. They weren't cheap though.
They used to be made, I have a pair made by Galibier that I bought in 1972, I think the model was RD but I'm not sure and it isn't written on them. They are all leather, narrow welt like Super-Guides so really good for rock climbing and were supplied with two sorts of inners, one leather and the other a synthetic furry sort for colder conditions. I got them for Bolivia where the advantage was their warmth and the way you could keep the inners warm in your sleeping bag or as a pillow thus avoiding the morning struggle of getting into frozen boots - the outer being just leather with no padding remained flexible even when frozen. I used them for many years after, on another expedition and even on rock climbs in the Alps as they were just as good as single boots for comfort and climbing, until the uppers weren't worth resoling again. They weren't cheap though.
In reply to sebflynn:
They used to be really common boot wear around ten years or so ago. Lighter single boots came on the market... I've got an old pair of double boots I'd be happy to sell you. They weigh nearly 2kgs...
> Why has nobody created a double boot with the warmth of a single boot, the only double boots i have found are suitable for 6000m+ making it stupidly warm for what most people would like a single boot for like long trips in the lower mountain ranges (alps, scotland, rocky's). So why dont they exist?
They used to be really common boot wear around ten years or so ago. Lighter single boots came on the market... I've got an old pair of double boots I'd be happy to sell you. They weigh nearly 2kgs...
In reply to Dave Perry:
Any thing that goes beyond a single day double boots are pretty much a necessity unless you want your single boots frozen solid.
Any thing that goes beyond a single day double boots are pretty much a necessity unless you want your single boots frozen solid.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
you dont get double boots that are made for below 6000m. (not any more)
you dont get double boots that are made for below 6000m. (not any more)
In reply to sebflynn:
If you fill them with water before you go to bed they will freeze solid so maybe don't do that, but otherwise that's bollocks. I camp between two days of ice climbing regularly. My boots may feel chilly when I first put them on Sunday morning but just walk around in them a bit and you soon warm them up!
But if you want light double boots that are good for a range of ice climbing conditions check out http://www.sportiva.com/products/footwear/mountain/baruntse they're great.
BTW, is your profile for real or just a joke? It's funny either way.
> Any thing that goes beyond a single day double boots are pretty much a necessity unless you want your single boots frozen solid.
If you fill them with water before you go to bed they will freeze solid so maybe don't do that, but otherwise that's bollocks. I camp between two days of ice climbing regularly. My boots may feel chilly when I first put them on Sunday morning but just walk around in them a bit and you soon warm them up!
But if you want light double boots that are good for a range of ice climbing conditions check out http://www.sportiva.com/products/footwear/mountain/baruntse they're great.
BTW, is your profile for real or just a joke? It's funny either way.
Post edited at 20:35
In reply to sebflynn:
Because they make single boots warm enough, and as others have mentioned, they are both lighter and ~700 times more pleasant.
> you dont get double boots that are made for below 6000m. (not any more)
Because they make single boots warm enough, and as others have mentioned, they are both lighter and ~700 times more pleasant.
In reply to sebflynn:
Koflache make the Guardian.
> you dont get double boots that are made for below 6000m. (not any more)
Koflache make the Guardian.
In reply to sebflynn:
As others have said... weird question!
I think Scarpa Vegas are used a lot for Scottish stuff, but being plastic they'd be a bugger to walk in.
Do modern boots really freeze solid??? I don't think they do. I have left my Ultras outside my bivi at nearly -20oC and they have still been very easy to put on the next morning. No issues whatsoever.
As others have said... weird question!
I think Scarpa Vegas are used a lot for Scottish stuff, but being plastic they'd be a bugger to walk in.
Do modern boots really freeze solid??? I don't think they do. I have left my Ultras outside my bivi at nearly -20oC and they have still been very easy to put on the next morning. No issues whatsoever.
In reply to sebflynn:
Why not just get phantom 6000 I know a guy that uses them for Scottish winter no complaints.
If not something like the guide or batura does the job, not the fastest drying in the world but not as bad as a full grain leather imo.
Why not just get phantom 6000 I know a guy that uses them for Scottish winter no complaints.
If not something like the guide or batura does the job, not the fastest drying in the world but not as bad as a full grain leather imo.
In reply to sebflynn:
Not True. I have done many a one or two nighter in snow holes and tents and not had a problem
> Any thing that goes beyond a single day double boots are pretty much a necessity unless you want your single boots frozen solid.
Not True. I have done many a one or two nighter in snow holes and tents and not had a problem
In reply to sebflynn:
i snowholed with my sportiva nepals this winter and they didn't freeze solid not particularly pleasant but do able. you can buy my HA vegas if you like size 46?
i snowholed with my sportiva nepals this winter and they didn't freeze solid not particularly pleasant but do able. you can buy my HA vegas if you like size 46?
In reply to TobyA:
Sorry but it isn't bollocks, if you climb in places where it is warm in the day so your boots get wet then freezes hard at night it can be a real hassle in the morning - sleeping outside in a tent or bivvy bag that is. Have you never heard people advising keeping your boots inside your sleeping bag at high altitude? From experience, while my mate was swearing and cursing I'd be ready to go. With double boots you get (got) the best of both worlds, and you can also mooch about alpine huts looking smarter than in the old rubber clogs.
> If you fill them with water before you go to bed they will freeze solid so maybe don't do that, but otherwise that's bollocks.
Sorry but it isn't bollocks, if you climb in places where it is warm in the day so your boots get wet then freezes hard at night it can be a real hassle in the morning - sleeping outside in a tent or bivvy bag that is. Have you never heard people advising keeping your boots inside your sleeping bag at high altitude? From experience, while my mate was swearing and cursing I'd be ready to go. With double boots you get (got) the best of both worlds, and you can also mooch about alpine huts looking smarter than in the old rubber clogs.
In reply to sebflynn:
Concerning weight, I decided to bring a bit of science into this discussion, I have just weighed my old Galibier double boots - 3030 grms the pair with inner boots, and my more modern Sportiva Nepal Extremes - 2500 grms, so hardly a big deal, 530 grms, about 1 lb difference.
Concerning warmth I can't say I've noticed much difference with the more modern single boots, and they are good for rock climbing too so I can't say I regret the old boots much... both are comfortable although the Galibiers were really like wearing carpet slippers, unless it's my memory that's failing me, of course
Concerning weight, I decided to bring a bit of science into this discussion, I have just weighed my old Galibier double boots - 3030 grms the pair with inner boots, and my more modern Sportiva Nepal Extremes - 2500 grms, so hardly a big deal, 530 grms, about 1 lb difference.
Concerning warmth I can't say I've noticed much difference with the more modern single boots, and they are good for rock climbing too so I can't say I regret the old boots much... both are comfortable although the Galibiers were really like wearing carpet slippers, unless it's my memory that's failing me, of course
In reply to alasdair19:
snowholes are warmer though, anyway it's only a problem when it's really cold.
snowholes are warmer though, anyway it's only a problem when it's really cold.
In reply to TobyA:
you dont get any one more real and unashamed than i, i can promise you that.
you should look around the web a bit in my ridiculous amounts of research i found this to be the main reason why people buy double boots.
you dont get any one more real and unashamed than i, i can promise you that.
you should look around the web a bit in my ridiculous amounts of research i found this to be the main reason why people buy double boots.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
They sound like they are either Hivernale's or Makalu's - the latter actually being a triple IIRC.
I've had a few pairs of Galibier's in the past, Peutery's, Super Guides, and Super Guide Pro's.
However, although they were good, and literally as tough as old boots, I'd hardly describe them as carpet slippers - used to be an old joke about them, that you didn't break a pair of Super Guides in, they broke your feet in
And compared to modern boots, they were very heavy, though I've still got my last pair in the loft - we've done some good alpine stuff together, and I can't bring myself to throw them out.
They sound like they are either Hivernale's or Makalu's - the latter actually being a triple IIRC.
I've had a few pairs of Galibier's in the past, Peutery's, Super Guides, and Super Guide Pro's.
However, although they were good, and literally as tough as old boots, I'd hardly describe them as carpet slippers - used to be an old joke about them, that you didn't break a pair of Super Guides in, they broke your feet in
And compared to modern boots, they were very heavy, though I've still got my last pair in the loft - we've done some good alpine stuff together, and I can't bring myself to throw them out.
In reply to sebflynn:
I'm a little3 thick perhaps. Can you explain why you want double boots that are suitable for climbing lower than 6000 meters?
Most modern stiff boots are quite capable of dealing with most conditions below 6000m. My own boots, Zamberliens or however its spelt, have Gortex liners, like most modern winter footwear. They are just as waterproof as my old plastic Koflachs. I've also had, like Bruck Hooker ancient and very heavy leather stiff boots. They used to get wet and freeze at night. But modern boots with Gortex linings simply don't allow water in, so unless you have exceptionally sweaty feet boots freezing up shouldn't be a problem.
So please tell us why you want double boots?
I'm a little3 thick perhaps. Can you explain why you want double boots that are suitable for climbing lower than 6000 meters?
Most modern stiff boots are quite capable of dealing with most conditions below 6000m. My own boots, Zamberliens or however its spelt, have Gortex liners, like most modern winter footwear. They are just as waterproof as my old plastic Koflachs. I've also had, like Bruck Hooker ancient and very heavy leather stiff boots. They used to get wet and freeze at night. But modern boots with Gortex linings simply don't allow water in, so unless you have exceptionally sweaty feet boots freezing up shouldn't be a problem.
So please tell us why you want double boots?
In reply to Goucho:
In the mid 80s a mate had a pair of Kastinger, Peter Habelar doubles. Plastic shell, with a 'Light walking' boot inner. They were brilliant for Caingorm approaches, just wore the inner, and put on the shells at the snow level. Very comfy, but never caught on much for some reason?
In the mid 80s a mate had a pair of Kastinger, Peter Habelar doubles. Plastic shell, with a 'Light walking' boot inner. They were brilliant for Caingorm approaches, just wore the inner, and put on the shells at the snow level. Very comfy, but never caught on much for some reason?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
i had a pair freeze on skye once when camping on the ridge should have brought them into he inner tent i guess.
not had a chance to use my warm boots for ages and if i do i can see a £500 bill for spantiks on the horizon and the old ones being donated to some hard ass HA porter
i had a pair freeze on skye once when camping on the ridge should have brought them into he inner tent i guess.
not had a chance to use my warm boots for ages and if i do i can see a £500 bill for spantiks on the horizon and the old ones being donated to some hard ass HA porter
In reply to sebflynn:
Ok guys let me clarify what i see as a modern double boot and what is a classic double boot.
A modern double boot would be the scarpa phantom 6000 it's not a plastic boot, it's not terribly uncomfortable, it's made out of nylon and it weighs only 100 grams more than the phantom guide the single boot version.
A classic double boot is somthing like The scarpa vega HD unlike the modern it is heavy, uncomfortable, made out of thick durable plastic, and weighs 500 grams more than the modern double boot.
When i talk about double boots i am talking about a modern double boot SO STOP TALKING ABOUT PLASTICS!!!
The big problem i have with current double boots is that they cant be used in the summer they are strictly high altitude and frigid winter boot's.
The big problem i have with single boots is them not having a removable liner not having a removable liner makes them susceptible to freezing if not kept warm on an over night trip it also just reduces the comfort in cramming you're foot into a frozen boot. so if you take these flaws out of the boots you get a double boot with the warmth of a single boot making it much more versatile for the average user.
There if i havnt convinced you that a double boot with single boot warmth would be a pro rather than a con then i give up.
Ok guys let me clarify what i see as a modern double boot and what is a classic double boot.
A modern double boot would be the scarpa phantom 6000 it's not a plastic boot, it's not terribly uncomfortable, it's made out of nylon and it weighs only 100 grams more than the phantom guide the single boot version.
A classic double boot is somthing like The scarpa vega HD unlike the modern it is heavy, uncomfortable, made out of thick durable plastic, and weighs 500 grams more than the modern double boot.
When i talk about double boots i am talking about a modern double boot SO STOP TALKING ABOUT PLASTICS!!!
The big problem i have with current double boots is that they cant be used in the summer they are strictly high altitude and frigid winter boot's.
The big problem i have with single boots is them not having a removable liner not having a removable liner makes them susceptible to freezing if not kept warm on an over night trip it also just reduces the comfort in cramming you're foot into a frozen boot. so if you take these flaws out of the boots you get a double boot with the warmth of a single boot making it much more versatile for the average user.
There if i havnt convinced you that a double boot with single boot warmth would be a pro rather than a con then i give up.
In reply to sebflynn:
You need to get out mate - go climbing/walking. Whatever. Seriously - get out.
You need to get out mate - go climbing/walking. Whatever. Seriously - get out.
In reply to sebflynn:
So do we. If its warm enough to use a single boot, they won't freeze. To echo the last two posts - get off your computer, go climbing and then come up with an argument.
> then i give up.
So do we. If its warm enough to use a single boot, they won't freeze. To echo the last two posts - get off your computer, go climbing and then come up with an argument.
In reply to sebflynn:
Mate, you asked a question on a public forum. With one exception, you've got a consistent set of replies from people who cannot understand your question as your purported problems with boots are not shared by them. If you are only prepared to hear a certain very particular answer, why ask the question?
> There if i havnt convinced you that a double boot with single boot warmth would be a pro rather than a con then i give up.
Mate, you asked a question on a public forum. With one exception, you've got a consistent set of replies from people who cannot understand your question as your purported problems with boots are not shared by them. If you are only prepared to hear a certain very particular answer, why ask the question?
In reply to Dave Perry:
> unless you have exceptionally sweaty feet boots freezing up shouldn't be a problem.
well seeing how my hiking boots inner are wet to the touch after a 3 season hike then surly climbing in winter with 6000m boots will get the inner wet.Post edited at 22:42
In reply to sebflynn:
I don'y like being negative so try and track down some scarpa alpha's or omegas, the lodge used to have them I assume scarpa don;t make them anymore cause your the only dude that wants them.
nice boots like the vegas but a lot less clunky, but neither warmer, nor more comfortable, nor better to climb in then current single boots.
ps bring spare socks then with warm feet you'll thaw your cold single boots out quicker
I don'y like being negative so try and track down some scarpa alpha's or omegas, the lodge used to have them I assume scarpa don;t make them anymore cause your the only dude that wants them.
nice boots like the vegas but a lot less clunky, but neither warmer, nor more comfortable, nor better to climb in then current single boots.
ps bring spare socks then with warm feet you'll thaw your cold single boots out quicker
In reply to sebflynn:
it possible that it'll be chilly at 6000m and your feet won't be sweating so much. if your 3 season boots have gore tex lining then thats your problem right there.
it possible that it'll be chilly at 6000m and your feet won't be sweating so much. if your 3 season boots have gore tex lining then thats your problem right there.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
because i haven't hear somthing actually compelling enough to change my mind.
because i haven't hear somthing actually compelling enough to change my mind.
In reply to sebflynn:
Buddy, come on man, help us a bit here, so we can help you! These people aren't inept, there's many lives of mountaineering experience talking here. People's genunie inability to see why you think there is a problem isn't them being difficult, it is them not having experienced the problems you are on about throughout their lives. Tell us specifically where/when/what you were doing when you had these problems. Otherwise it becomes a situation of you not backing up your point.
Be clear about the problem(s) YOU have experienced, and people will help you!
Buddy, come on man, help us a bit here, so we can help you! These people aren't inept, there's many lives of mountaineering experience talking here. People's genunie inability to see why you think there is a problem isn't them being difficult, it is them not having experienced the problems you are on about throughout their lives. Tell us specifically where/when/what you were doing when you had these problems. Otherwise it becomes a situation of you not backing up your point.
Be clear about the problem(s) YOU have experienced, and people will help you!
Post edited at 22:59
In reply to sebflynn:
I use a double boot system, a soft wool liner that moulds to my feet, and a tough outer that keeps the weather and terrain at bay.
I use a double boot system, a soft wool liner that moulds to my feet, and a tough outer that keeps the weather and terrain at bay.
In reply to sebflynn:
It is extremely warm and it is plastic...I don't really know what you are on about?
> Who said this boot isnt warm and who said it was a plastic?
It is extremely warm and it is plastic...I don't really know what you are on about?
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
I'm not sure in our heart of hearts that at this stage we're really trying to help him...
I'm not sure in our heart of hearts that at this stage we're really trying to help him...
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Many modern boots aren't leather, they're synthetic so they don't hold water much and I've not even found my Nepal Extremes (leather) that have been in mud or wet snow all day difficult to put on the next day after camping out. They don't seem to hold much water in the leather.
It's odd, but I can't really think of a time where footwear freezing overnight ever made it hard for me to actually put them on the next day. Cold yes, but hard to put on? Nope.
Many modern boots aren't leather, they're synthetic so they don't hold water much and I've not even found my Nepal Extremes (leather) that have been in mud or wet snow all day difficult to put on the next day after camping out. They don't seem to hold much water in the leather.
It's odd, but I can't really think of a time where footwear freezing overnight ever made it hard for me to actually put them on the next day. Cold yes, but hard to put on? Nope.
In reply to sebflynn:
So if your profile isn't a joke you've only been climbing for a few months, so I presume you haven't even gone summer climbing in the Alps for instance? There you could get your boots wet in the day in soggy wet snow, then bivvy out at night with the temperature below freezing. So go and give it a go, and see if you find your boots so frozen in the morning you can't put them on. I suspect you won't.
Or just buy some yeti gaiters for your single boots, then you have "summer weight double boots"!
So if your profile isn't a joke you've only been climbing for a few months, so I presume you haven't even gone summer climbing in the Alps for instance? There you could get your boots wet in the day in soggy wet snow, then bivvy out at night with the temperature below freezing. So go and give it a go, and see if you find your boots so frozen in the morning you can't put them on. I suspect you won't.
Or just buy some yeti gaiters for your single boots, then you have "summer weight double boots"!
In reply to alasdair19:
maybe we need to say to him, Seb you're 16 yrs old with bags of enthusiasm, which we all applaud but of necessity your experience is limited. The people you are receiving advice from are, in some instances, very experienced and perhaps they have a point, or am i being too harsh
maybe we need to say to him, Seb you're 16 yrs old with bags of enthusiasm, which we all applaud but of necessity your experience is limited. The people you are receiving advice from are, in some instances, very experienced and perhaps they have a point, or am i being too harsh
In reply to John Kelly:
Probably about right, we should encourage him. With a bit of luck we'll have another tom riply who can entertain us for years!
Probably about right, we should encourage him. With a bit of luck we'll have another tom riply who can entertain us for years!
In reply to alasdair19:
Aye the more Tom R's the better - quite seriously he is obviously massively keen on all things mountaineering and we should encourage the chap
go Seb
(ask as many questions as you can think of, stops us old duffers nodding off)
Aye the more Tom R's the better - quite seriously he is obviously massively keen on all things mountaineering and we should encourage the chap
go Seb
(ask as many questions as you can think of, stops us old duffers nodding off)
In reply to sebflynn:
I thought about getting Omegas a few years back for the reasons you describe. I've had my Nepal Extremes freeze a bunch of times (the Alps in high summer seems the worst place for this) and it isn't nice. Goretex makes no difference -- the inside is wet from sweat either way and the outside leather can get soaked by wet snow either way. With double boots you can remove the liner, keep it warm and hopefully dry it out a bit in your bag. There's no way I'm bringing a wet pair of leather boots into my pit.
Nepal Evos weigh the same as Scarpa Omegas, so double boots don't need to be super-heavy. Once the Sportiva's leather gets soaked they get heavier of course.
I suspect that the reason double boots like you're asking for don't exist because they're unfashionable (plastic boots had a bad rep for being uncomfortable) and maybe because lots of the people wanting to bring their inners into their bags with them are wearing Spantiks or ski boots already and so aren't crying out for it. You'd be pitching what's considered to be a dead end to a tiny market. There would be some people who'd get something out of it, but not enough to be worth bothering.
Integrated gaiters and VBLs can be made to do the job.
I thought about getting Omegas a few years back for the reasons you describe. I've had my Nepal Extremes freeze a bunch of times (the Alps in high summer seems the worst place for this) and it isn't nice. Goretex makes no difference -- the inside is wet from sweat either way and the outside leather can get soaked by wet snow either way. With double boots you can remove the liner, keep it warm and hopefully dry it out a bit in your bag. There's no way I'm bringing a wet pair of leather boots into my pit.
Nepal Evos weigh the same as Scarpa Omegas, so double boots don't need to be super-heavy. Once the Sportiva's leather gets soaked they get heavier of course.
I suspect that the reason double boots like you're asking for don't exist because they're unfashionable (plastic boots had a bad rep for being uncomfortable) and maybe because lots of the people wanting to bring their inners into their bags with them are wearing Spantiks or ski boots already and so aren't crying out for it. You'd be pitching what's considered to be a dead end to a tiny market. There would be some people who'd get something out of it, but not enough to be worth bothering.
Integrated gaiters and VBLs can be made to do the job.
In reply to sebflynn:
In googling the weight of Omegas I found this article by Dane (of course):
http://coldthistle.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/double-boots.html
I note the first comment asks the exact same question you ask in your opening post.
In googling the weight of Omegas I found this article by Dane (of course):
http://coldthistle.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/double-boots.html
I note the first comment asks the exact same question you ask in your opening post.
In reply to sebflynn:
Taxi for DJViper!
Meanwhile, there are proper practical considerations, and there are theoretical considerations that sound important and don't make a lot of difference in the grand scheme of things.
In my humbly bumbly experience (Asolo AFS101s for about 10 years up to 6000m) I had nice warm feet but usually sweaty ones, so after longer trips my feet were tending to be more soggy and rotten in plastics than leathers which were at least more breathable (uninsulated Sportiva Nepal Tops).
Both were uncomfortable for walking in different ways, but at least the Sportivas were light and uncomfortable. The Asolos were more like kayaks.
Frozen bivvies were easy - boots went in the bivvy bag and both plastics and leathers were mildly uncomfortable to put on in the morning. Nothing serious as long as I remembered a luxury pair of socks (as I am fond of my digits and want to keep the standard configuration).
In terms of feeling what was going on the Asolos weren't good for anything other than edging when they were great - being completely rigid. The Sportivas were trimmer and more sensitive but still thick leather and a rigid sole equals not much feeling either. This may explain why my winter climbing had the grace and beauty of a partially stunned ox in an abbatoir. Or alternatively I'm just sh*t.
Doubles are always a little more bulky to gain durability: a side effect is thus warmth. I suspect a thin, cool double is an oxymoron.
Good luck with your quest and go out there and enjoy the hills without sweating too much about the gear (and I was a shocker for this and still am to a lesser degree - a lot of gear and not much idea, me. Still, not dead yet which is good).
Have fun out there
b
Taxi for DJViper!
Meanwhile, there are proper practical considerations, and there are theoretical considerations that sound important and don't make a lot of difference in the grand scheme of things.
In my humbly bumbly experience (Asolo AFS101s for about 10 years up to 6000m) I had nice warm feet but usually sweaty ones, so after longer trips my feet were tending to be more soggy and rotten in plastics than leathers which were at least more breathable (uninsulated Sportiva Nepal Tops).
Both were uncomfortable for walking in different ways, but at least the Sportivas were light and uncomfortable. The Asolos were more like kayaks.
Frozen bivvies were easy - boots went in the bivvy bag and both plastics and leathers were mildly uncomfortable to put on in the morning. Nothing serious as long as I remembered a luxury pair of socks (as I am fond of my digits and want to keep the standard configuration).
In terms of feeling what was going on the Asolos weren't good for anything other than edging when they were great - being completely rigid. The Sportivas were trimmer and more sensitive but still thick leather and a rigid sole equals not much feeling either. This may explain why my winter climbing had the grace and beauty of a partially stunned ox in an abbatoir. Or alternatively I'm just sh*t.
Doubles are always a little more bulky to gain durability: a side effect is thus warmth. I suspect a thin, cool double is an oxymoron.
Good luck with your quest and go out there and enjoy the hills without sweating too much about the gear (and I was a shocker for this and still am to a lesser degree - a lot of gear and not much idea, me. Still, not dead yet which is good).
Have fun out there
b
In reply to Goucho:
I've never had Super Guides, they were very popular but didn't look that comfortable to me either. With the furry inner boots mine were (are as they're still in the garage) much more compfy. The leather was black, not the reverse leather as on SG's. IIRC they were the same as used on the Annapurna N face expedition, except they fixed fabric outer boots over the top, nailed to the welts so the sole was still useable. They're are some for sale on ebay. As for weight, see above, 500 grms difference to Sportiva Nepals, not that much. I can't throw mine out either although they'll never be used again.
> used to be an old joke about them, that you didn't break a pair of Super Guides in, they broke your feet in
I've never had Super Guides, they were very popular but didn't look that comfortable to me either. With the furry inner boots mine were (are as they're still in the garage) much more compfy. The leather was black, not the reverse leather as on SG's. IIRC they were the same as used on the Annapurna N face expedition, except they fixed fabric outer boots over the top, nailed to the welts so the sole was still useable. They're are some for sale on ebay. As for weight, see above, 500 grms difference to Sportiva Nepals, not that much. I can't throw mine out either although they'll never be used again.
In reply to TobyA:
It's true it's hardly a daily experience, just one reason for a choice - a bit like buying a 4WD for the one day a year when it snows. I now have Sportivas too and they are a very good boot, they've never frozen overnight because I haven't been in such conditions in the last 40 years anyway and never will in the future... however the OP asked a question and maybe he will.
If he wanted a pair of old style doubles there are a few for sale on ebay.
> It's odd, but I can't really think of a time where footwear freezing overnight ever made it hard for me to actually put them on the next day
It's true it's hardly a daily experience, just one reason for a choice - a bit like buying a 4WD for the one day a year when it snows. I now have Sportivas too and they are a very good boot, they've never frozen overnight because I haven't been in such conditions in the last 40 years anyway and never will in the future... however the OP asked a question and maybe he will.
If he wanted a pair of old style doubles there are a few for sale on ebay.
In reply to sebflynn:
I've used Scarpa Omegas for everything for years. Everything from 6000m to chalk climbing on the South Coast. Never had a problem with warm or cold feet.
I've used Scarpa Omegas for everything for years. Everything from 6000m to chalk climbing on the South Coast. Never had a problem with warm or cold feet.
In reply to sebflynn:
I must be extra thick.
Seb please tell me why you wish a double boot suitable for the lower altitudes - (Scotland eg) needs to exist ? Having just skimmed Dans blogg it appears that some of the featured boots are plastic, double and suitable for the UK/Alps/Scotland and the 'lower 6000 aka rockies)
Most modern winter boots such as Scarpa Manta, my own Zamberlan pro something or other and all the others I've seen all have goretex liners. So even if they are used in wet thawing conditions the insides simply do not get wet and therefore do not freeze solid (unlike my old thick leather ones)
If you have problems with your existing boots getting wet it may be you are not cleaning and proofing them properly? Or they simply are not up to the job.
I must be extra thick.
Seb please tell me why you wish a double boot suitable for the lower altitudes - (Scotland eg) needs to exist ? Having just skimmed Dans blogg it appears that some of the featured boots are plastic, double and suitable for the UK/Alps/Scotland and the 'lower 6000 aka rockies)
Most modern winter boots such as Scarpa Manta, my own Zamberlan pro something or other and all the others I've seen all have goretex liners. So even if they are used in wet thawing conditions the insides simply do not get wet and therefore do not freeze solid (unlike my old thick leather ones)
If you have problems with your existing boots getting wet it may be you are not cleaning and proofing them properly? Or they simply are not up to the job.
In reply to Dave Perry:
Modern leather boots certainly do freeze solid!
And gortex isn't that good, spend enough time in wet snow and you will get wet feet or spend enough time walking and you will get sweaty feet!
Modern leather boots certainly do freeze solid!
And gortex isn't that good, spend enough time in wet snow and you will get wet feet or spend enough time walking and you will get sweaty feet!
In reply to sebflynn:
Maybe you need some liner sock and a yeti gaiter or just the liner sock if that's too heavy. Or a gaiter style single boot and a liner sock. The scarpa 6000 appears to be just a phantom with the insulation change up a bit. You could come up with a new design and call it the scarpa 600.
Maybe you need some liner sock and a yeti gaiter or just the liner sock if that's too heavy. Or a gaiter style single boot and a liner sock. The scarpa 6000 appears to be just a phantom with the insulation change up a bit. You could come up with a new design and call it the scarpa 600.
In reply to alastairbegley:
But Ailster, so will double boots if you have sweaty feet.
Modern boots are, in my opinion both lighter and more waterproof than any of the old thick leather boots I owned. But maybe I didn't look after them properly!
But Ailster, so will double boots if you have sweaty feet.
Modern boots are, in my opinion both lighter and more waterproof than any of the old thick leather boots I owned. But maybe I didn't look after them properly!
In reply to sebflynn:
Ach, that's the problem with the youth of today. They give up so easily!
Seb, a "double boot with single boot warmth" is almost an impossibility, using current boot materials. I would almost entail deliberately backward-engineering. To make shell + liner both durable and functional they will be warmer than a single boot, as they are two substantial layers - as opposed to just a firm shell with somewhat insulating liner of a modern single boot. You seem to be wanting something more like a thin single boot with a removable 'sock' inner? This would ruin the improving fit that most climbers want now.
There are market forces. Most places people need to worry about liners freezing are overnight trips - i.e. winter alpine or Greater Ranges - and so modern doubles like Spantiks are needed for warmth anyway.
At home in the Alps in summer, or Scotland, or ice climbing in Canada/Norway/Cogne etc most people are just day climbing so can dry their boots at night, thus negating your concern. This is where the numbers are in the market nowadays, along with the fact that more people are climbing mixed and more people are wanting more technical boots (nimble, light, low volume, shaped), which again almost necessarily rules out doubles, which are inherently clunkier and less precise in fit - even if the two parts of the double are thinner than HA boots.
Where I think there is room for innovation - again something I discussed with Dane - and which Salewa have tried to address with their twist-adjustable-stiffness system, is a boot that is warm enough to use in the mountains, can take a decent crampon, but is more comfortable to walk in, probably via a more flexible or modular sole. Most mountaineering, in numerical terms, is on easy non-tech peaks (Mt Blanc, Rainier, Hood, Denali, Aconcagua, Island Pk, Mera Peak, Manaslu, Everest) and you really don't need boots you can front-point in, though you are doing a lot of 'walking' in crampons. More flexible boots would be less tiring, promote circulation and help prevent frostbite.
> ... if i havnt convinced you that a double boot with single boot warmth would be a pro rather than a con then i give up.
Ach, that's the problem with the youth of today. They give up so easily!
Seb, a "double boot with single boot warmth" is almost an impossibility, using current boot materials. I would almost entail deliberately backward-engineering. To make shell + liner both durable and functional they will be warmer than a single boot, as they are two substantial layers - as opposed to just a firm shell with somewhat insulating liner of a modern single boot. You seem to be wanting something more like a thin single boot with a removable 'sock' inner? This would ruin the improving fit that most climbers want now.
There are market forces. Most places people need to worry about liners freezing are overnight trips - i.e. winter alpine or Greater Ranges - and so modern doubles like Spantiks are needed for warmth anyway.
At home in the Alps in summer, or Scotland, or ice climbing in Canada/Norway/Cogne etc most people are just day climbing so can dry their boots at night, thus negating your concern. This is where the numbers are in the market nowadays, along with the fact that more people are climbing mixed and more people are wanting more technical boots (nimble, light, low volume, shaped), which again almost necessarily rules out doubles, which are inherently clunkier and less precise in fit - even if the two parts of the double are thinner than HA boots.
Where I think there is room for innovation - again something I discussed with Dane - and which Salewa have tried to address with their twist-adjustable-stiffness system, is a boot that is warm enough to use in the mountains, can take a decent crampon, but is more comfortable to walk in, probably via a more flexible or modular sole. Most mountaineering, in numerical terms, is on easy non-tech peaks (Mt Blanc, Rainier, Hood, Denali, Aconcagua, Island Pk, Mera Peak, Manaslu, Everest) and you really don't need boots you can front-point in, though you are doing a lot of 'walking' in crampons. More flexible boots would be less tiring, promote circulation and help prevent frostbite.
Post edited at 09:18
In reply to Flashy:
Seb I know you said not plastics, but hear me out. You've explained yourself quite clearly if you ask me so I don't know why you're getting aggro from people, seems to be a given of internet forums.
I have tried on Omega's and it felt like I had a my foot in a plastic bucket- people climb in these??
However, though it be old school I am still wearing Lowa Civetta Extremes- these are a bit narrower than the Scarpas and a lot less clumsy, I also find them very comfortable to walk in. I have done 27 miles in a day in them and not got blisters! I think the crucial thing is, being doubles, the inner heels slips slightly inside the outer, instead of rubbing on your heel. You can tighten them for climbing of course.
I do multi day trips across scotland and stay in bothies (or occasionally outside)so what with wet snow and all those bogs and streams (fords of avon come to mind) leather boots would never dry out.
The Civetta extremes have goretex inners which sounds pointless but is actually quite clever- condensation forms on the inside of the outer, and being liquid, can't get back in. At the end of each day you change your inner sock and use the dry ankle bit to wipe the outside of the inner and the inside of the outer. If you did go up to your knees in a stream you can put the inners inside your sleeping bag.
Cons:
1. a bit heavy
2. dont fit all crampons as the heels ledge is a bit weird (charlet moser M10's are ok, grivels less so)
3. Not readily available in UK- I bought mine on american ebay- they are a german company and seem to sell in europe and also the US but not here, don't know why. There were a good few pairs knocking around in german army surplus black a few years ago so you could try them for 50 quid (what i did), not sure if there are now though.
Oh and they look better in real life than the photos, especially the red ones
Seb I know you said not plastics, but hear me out. You've explained yourself quite clearly if you ask me so I don't know why you're getting aggro from people, seems to be a given of internet forums.
I have tried on Omega's and it felt like I had a my foot in a plastic bucket- people climb in these??
However, though it be old school I am still wearing Lowa Civetta Extremes- these are a bit narrower than the Scarpas and a lot less clumsy, I also find them very comfortable to walk in. I have done 27 miles in a day in them and not got blisters! I think the crucial thing is, being doubles, the inner heels slips slightly inside the outer, instead of rubbing on your heel. You can tighten them for climbing of course.
I do multi day trips across scotland and stay in bothies (or occasionally outside)so what with wet snow and all those bogs and streams (fords of avon come to mind) leather boots would never dry out.
The Civetta extremes have goretex inners which sounds pointless but is actually quite clever- condensation forms on the inside of the outer, and being liquid, can't get back in. At the end of each day you change your inner sock and use the dry ankle bit to wipe the outside of the inner and the inside of the outer. If you did go up to your knees in a stream you can put the inners inside your sleeping bag.
Cons:
1. a bit heavy
2. dont fit all crampons as the heels ledge is a bit weird (charlet moser M10's are ok, grivels less so)
3. Not readily available in UK- I bought mine on american ebay- they are a german company and seem to sell in europe and also the US but not here, don't know why. There were a good few pairs knocking around in german army surplus black a few years ago so you could try them for 50 quid (what i did), not sure if there are now though.
Oh and they look better in real life than the photos, especially the red ones
Post edited at 18:20
In reply to Damo:
Scarpa's new Rebel ultra gtx is extremely flexible in the ankle these where design for ueli steck so he could run in so these look very promising as far as boots go, all though really a specialized i could see week end warriors and alpine pro's finding some common ground in this boot.
> Where I think there is room for innovation - again something I discussed with Dane - and which Salewa have tried to address with their twist-adjustable-stiffness system, is a boot that is warm enough to use in the mountains, can take a decent crampon, but is more comfortable to walk in, probably via a more flexible or modular sole. Most mountaineering, in numerical terms, is on easy non-tech peaks (Mt Blanc, Rainier, Hood, Denali, Aconcagua, Island Pk, Mera Peak, Manaslu, Everest) and you really don't need boots you can front-point in, though you are doing a lot of 'walking' in crampons. More flexible boots would be less tiring, promote circulation and help prevent frostbite.
Scarpa's new Rebel ultra gtx is extremely flexible in the ankle these where design for ueli steck so he could run in so these look very promising as far as boots go, all though really a specialized i could see week end warriors and alpine pro's finding some common ground in this boot.
In reply to sebflynn:
I know it was early when you posted, but read it back to yourself and maybe have another try with the spelling and punctuation...
> Scarpa's new Rebel ultra gtx is extremely flexible in the ankle these where design for ueli steck so he could run in so these look very promising as far as boots go, all though really a specialized i could see week end warriors and alpine pro's finding some common ground in this boot.
I know it was early when you posted, but read it back to yourself and maybe have another try with the spelling and punctuation...
In reply to sebflynn:
Seb
Can you tell us where & when you got your three season footwear wet and then subsequently frozen?
It might just help the debate clarify matters and give a better understanding/
Seb
Can you tell us where & when you got your three season footwear wet and then subsequently frozen?
It might just help the debate clarify matters and give a better understanding/
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