/ Bike wheel keeps hitting frame

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Richard Carter - on 14 Nov 2012
The rear wheel of my old steel bike occassionally moves to the non drivetrain side and rubs against the frame. Can't figure out why or what to do about it. When it happens I have to stop, undo the quick release, move the wheel back to the right position, then re-tighten the quick release.

Any ideas?
balmybaldwin - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

Sounds like the drop outs the wheel sits in are not of the modern type (i.e. they are horizonal rather than vertical) - I think you just need to tighten the QR a fair bit - it should be nearly impossible to move at its tightest point
Jon Jones - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

Quick release is knackered? Hub is knackered?

Is there any play if you wiggle the wheel by the rim? (when the QR is tight in the frame)
Epic Ebdon - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

Does it happen when you press on the pedals? If so, then I'd say you may well have snapped your rear axle. Undo the quick release skewer fully so the nut/cap on the end comes off and pull the skewer right out. Now have a play with the axle - it wouldn't surprise me if it drops right out :-).

To solve it'll be a new axle, new hub or new wheel depending on damage/value of individual components.

Tim
Richard Carter - on 14 Nov 2012

"Sounds like the drop outs the wheel sits in are not of the modern type (i.e. they are horizonal rather than vertical)"

Correct.
Richard Carter - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Jones:

There's no play.
Richard Carter - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Epic Ebdon:

This could be a possibility, will have an investigate of the axle later. Failing that I guess I'll just tighten it up as much as possible and see what happens.
Epic Ebdon - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

Do keep us updated - it's always interesting to find out what the problem was in the end, and one often learns from the problems other people have had.

Cheers,

Tim
balmybaldwin - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

I take it you have the axle so it isn't up against the end of the "U" shaped slot?

In which case a set of these or something similar could eliminate the problem: http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/FSEXODS/planet_x_dropout_spacers_for_exocet

This is the frame they are for if it helps working out if they'd fit: http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/FRPXEX2/planet_x_exocet_2_carbon_tt_frame_and_fork
Mark Kemball - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to balmybaldwin:
> (In reply to Richard Carter)
>
> Sounds like the drop outs the wheel sits in are not of the modern type (i.e. they are horizonal rather than vertical) - I think you just need to tighten the QR a fair bit...

Had exactly the same problem for this reason.
nniff - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

Fairly common problem with horizontal drop-outs, particularly with true horizontal, rear facing drop outs. Basically, the effort you're putting in is shifting the drive side of the axle forward and so wheel touches the frame on the opposite side. You are relying on the tightness of the QR/nut, which is why fixies tend to have a nut rather than a QR so that you can graunch them up really tight.

Two cures - 1. tighten the QR more. 2. If you've got true horizontal drop-outs, get a Surly Tugnut. You only need one, and it goes on the drive side and holds the axle in place (and sets/maintains chain tension if it's a fixie). It comes with an adapter for bolted axle or QR
Richard Carter - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to balmybaldwin:

"I take it you have the axle so it isn't up against the end of the "U" shaped slot?"

That's right, it's a road bike that originally didn't have a derailleur hole, so I used an add on derailleur thing - one of these:
http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/coronadelmar/Derailleur_Hanger_Long_Hardware.JPG
Richard Carter - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Mark Kemball:


Tried tightening it up much as humanly possible and it the wheel still moved when I tested it last night :-P
VS4b - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

Are the caps that contain the bearings in the hub tight with no play? - if they're not done up it can wobble on the axis of the axle if that makes sense?

test it by taking the wheel out and see if the hub moves independantly of the skewers.
Richard Carter - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to nniff:

I have forward facing horizontal dropouts (It's an old Viscount bike from the 1970's).

Will the Surly Tuggnut work on that bike? I'm guessing I just put the wheel on, then use this as a stopper type thing?

Do non-quick release skewers tighten up more then?
Richard Carter - on 15 Nov 2012
Right have tightened it as much as humanly possible. Can't find any play in the hubs or anything.

As a side note - the frame has hole to attach things (e.g. mudguards) - any ideas what type bolts they take? They look the size of M5 bolts, but those won't fit, just go a turn or two in then stop.
balmybaldwin - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

Probably take an old imperial thread.

Your best bet may be to use a threaded axle and nuts instead of a QR, not sure how easy it would be to convert though
Alun - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:
Important questions:

1) before tightening the bolts, did you loosen them completely and 'reset' the alignment of the wheel so that it doesn't hit the frame? If not, try it to see if it's possible i.e. is is possible to lightly tighten the bolts, and then then gently spin the wheel by hand, such that no part of it touches the frame?

1a) are the bolts on both sides "in the same place" along the horizontal drop-out?

2) If answer (1) is "Yes": at what point does the wheel start hitting the frame again? When you put the first pedal stroke in?

2a) If answer (1) is "No" then you may have buckled your wheel. Dd you hit it against a curb or anything recently?
Richard Carter - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Alun:

1) Yes
1a)Yes
2) When I go riding it can happen anytime, sometimes when I first set off, other times I'll be riding 5miles and it'll suddenly do it. Although probably thinking about it, it's when I put the hammer down.
Richard Carter - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to balmybaldwin:

"Probably take an old imperial thread."

Grrrrrrr!
Where would I go to buy such things? I'm assuming B&Q and stuff is all metric now? Or is it an internet only job? Hmm might google to find my local screwfix
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LastBoyScout on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

If the drop-out opening is at the pedal end of the dropouts - as I suspect from the frame age and the hanger you've pictured - then a simpe tug nut won't work, as the bolt part sits inside the dropout.

The Surly one looks promising, but still might not work with your hanger, as this will space it too far from the frame to hook effectively.

Think you'll have to work on doing it up tight and maybe adding some frip washers to bite into the drop-outs to reduce movement.

Make sure you don't snap your skewer!
unclesamsauntibess - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter: Take it to a decent bike shop and have it looked at. Not Halfords, use an IBD.
JLS on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

>"The rear wheel of my old steel bike occassionally moves to the non drivetrain side and rubs against the frame."

I'd guess the drop-out are probably too thin for the length of spindel projecting beyond the last axle nut on the wheel causing the skewer to bottom out before becoming proper tight against the frame.

If you remove the wee springs on the QR skew this may generate enough space for the mechanism to work properly. If that doesn't work you'll need to file the ends of the axle down a bit to suit the narrow frame end.

I take it, it's not a fixie? QR wheels aren't a good option for fixie as there will always be a risk of pulling the wheel if the chain tries to ride over a tooth.
Richard Carter - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:


Just back from my local bike shop. They had Allen bolt skewers but they didn't think they'd be any tighter than QR skewers. Apparently you can replace the axle for a bolt on axle but they didn't have any or really know about it.


The QR is definitely clamping onto the dropouts and the axle doesn't go past them. Very annoying!
colina - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:
going back some years ago when i had a horezontal slot in the frame of my old bike, you use to have adjusting fittings which went round the axle on both sides and offered up against the back of the forks forks with an adjusting nut on both sides to keep the wheel central and also tension the chain (hard to explain without a picture) i suspect you havent got these fitted on your bike,i suspect whenever you put alot of pressure on the drive train the wheel will jam up against the fork.try replacing the quick release bits with old fashioned nuts and tighten them hard with a spanner.you could maybe fashion a wedge or similar out of wood which will stop the axle moving in the slot may do the trick,,why not buy a decent bike skinflint ! gd luck
michaelc - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:
Do the openings on the dropouts face forwards or backwards? If forwards, is there any way to pub a spacer in the empty space to stop the axle sliding forwards (axle pushes on spacer pushes on end of slot(frame-metal))?

Ultimately friction between QR and frame gives your holding power. This works on other bikes, so lets see what could be wrong with yours. Friction comes from tension in the skewer, and characteristics of the interface surface (geometry and surface finish: coeff of friction).
The force to be resisted is defined by your pedalling/gearing/etc.,

Cannot change the force to be resisted, unless you start riding your bike differently (why should you). So look at friction:
* You say the skewer is well tightened, so contact force should be good
* You say the right surfaces are touching, so geometry is good
* Seems to leave the surface finish characteristics of the interface surface as the most likely source of problem.

Is the paint finish the problem? Could change it locally.
Is the QR material/finish the problem? Could try another model of QR
Could add an interface toothed washer to give more bite.

Really reaching now, but could you use superglue/thread adhesive on the surface interface between the QR and the frame? It's in pure shear, which should be reasonably strong for such an adhesive joint. You'd mess up the paint ever removing it though, and second fitting would be a mess.
JLS on 15 Nov 2012
Richard Carter - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to colina:

I have other bikes, just wanted to get this working as its aesthetically pleasing :-p
Richard Carter - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to colina:

Where do I get the parts to replace the QR? My LBS said it wouldn't give any more tension :-/

The dropouts have been powder coated and I'm using friction washers.
Richard Carter - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to JLS:

Can't see how I could fit that without fouling the derailleur and stuffs
timjones - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:
> The rear wheel of my old steel bike occassionally moves to the non drivetrain side and rubs against the frame. Can't figure out why or what to do about it. When it happens I have to stop, undo the quick release, move the wheel back to the right position, then re-tighten the quick release.
>
> Any ideas?

Get rid of the quick release, fit a nut instead and invest in a spanner.
Richard Carter - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to timjones:

A few people have suggested this approach, but I can only find the allen key type skewers - which I've been told can't be done up as tightly as QR ones. If you could send me a link to what you mean it'd be greatly appreciated.
balmybaldwin - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

Look here: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/axles.html Look at the table called "Solid (Nutted, "Bolt-on" type) Rear"

They are based in the states, but it should give you an idea of what you are looking for
timjones - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:
> (In reply to timjones)
>
> A few people have suggested this approach, but I can only find the allen key type skewers - which I've been told can't be done up as tightly as QR ones. If you could send me a link to what you mean it'd be greatly appreciated.

I'm afraid my bike is definitely a "retro" model. Quick releases and skewers are a mystery to me. I was speaking from general experience of maintaining cars and machinery which leads me to believe that these modern fitments are rarely as robust, effective or easy to maintain as a good old-fashioned nut and bolt ;(
Monk - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

It's not the skewers you need to replace to follow the bolted route, but the whole axle. I'd be amazed if you couldn't do up a bolted axle tighter than you can do up QR.
Richard Carter - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to Monk:

Right didn't know I had to swap the entire axle.
The wheels are from an old 2009 Giant Defy 1 and it describes them as:
Mavic CXP22 Rims / Giant Custom Hubs

Is it even possible for me to replace the axle?
mattbell - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter: can we see some photos please?
Monk - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter:

I don't know for sure (as I have never tried to retrofit a bolt axle to a QR wheel), but I would imagine that it should be fairly easy to replace the axle (easy being a relative term when dealing with bearings). The only major difference between the two styles is that QR axles are hollow to allow the skewer to go through.
brunoschull - on 16 Nov 2012
Hi Richard,

This should be a relatively straightforward problem.

If I had to guess, I would say that you are having problems because the dropouts on the bicycle are a little worn, the locknuts on the hub are a little worn, and the quick release is old, or simply not effective. This is perhaps compounded by the fact that you are using washers (under the quick release?) and/or you are closing the quick release over both the dropout and the metal tab for the bolt on derailuer hanger, both of which would add complexity, and perhaps reduce the clamping force. If you need to use the bolt on hanger, so be it, but you certainly don't need any additional washers, and you should not need any wheel retention devices, and so on. Bikes have been ridden and raced in all conditions with simple horizontal dropouts and quick release skewers for years and years. The system works.

One of the first steps I would recommend would be to try a new quick release skewer, well-lubed, and closed tightly, but not with excessive force. It should leave an imprint in your palm, and require a strong push to close, but you should not have to really strain to close it.

But of course, there are plenty of things you can check...

First, some basic wheel work. With everything in place, grasp the wheel with one hand, and move it back and forth in the frame. Is there any play or rattling from the hub? Now take the wheel off, spin the axle, move the axle back and forth, and so on. Is there any play at the axle? Do the bearings run freely with no binding? If there is any play or the bearings are too tight, get the hub adjusted properly. Next, put the adjusted hub back on the bicycle and spin the wheel. Is the rim true or does it wobble back and forth? If the wheel does not run straight, get it trued. These two things, the hub adjustment and the rim truing, are not directly related to your problem, but since you're working on your wheel, why not do it right?

Now check the following things: measure the width of the axle, from locknut to locknut (the parts that contact the frame). Second, measure the dropout spacing on the frame. Make sure the hub and the frame are the same spacing...you don't want to try to force an narrow hub into a frame with wider dropouts. Third, get the dropouts on your frame inspected and aligned if necessary.

OK..assuming all that is fine, on to the part that is probably the most important. Inspect the surface of the locknuts on the hub. They usually have ridged or raised surfaces to bite onto the frame...are they worn down? Do they need to be replaced? Do the same with the quick release skewer: are the inside surfaces worn down, or do they look good?

If you think you need a new skewer, just buy a new quick release. Get a regular good quality skewer. Look for a model with a large amount of clamping surface area. Make sure to drip some lube inside the camming unit, and wipe off the excess. That should allow you to generate some good clamping force. Don't use any spacers or anything else under the skewer (except the derailuer hanger tab if necessary).

If none of the above works, you could convert you hub to a solid axle with fixing nuts, which generally generate much more clamping force than quick releases. To do this, you would need a solid axle of the right length, fixing nuts, and so on, but it might not be so simple, because the threads on the new axle might not match the threads of your current axle, so you would run into compatibility problems with the cones...and so on.

In terms of how to get all this done...you need to find a good bicycle shop with mechanics capable and willing to perform this kind of service. At one time, things like aligning dropouts, replacing axles, and so on, were routine, but, as they say, "the times they are a' changing..." Nonetheless, a good bicycle shop with some older experienced staff should be able to help you with all of this.

OK, all the best.
Alun - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to brunoschull:
What a fantastic reply!
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Richard Carter - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to brunoschull:


Thanks for the huge reply :) I'll try to work my way through it;


This should be a relatively straightforward problem.

"the dropouts on the bicycle are a little worn, the locknuts on the hub are a little worn, and the quick release is old, or simply not effective"

The QR might not be that good, certainly, there's little to no wear.



"If you need to use the bolt on hanger, so be it, but you certainly don't need any additional washers"

I need at least one additional washer as the bolt on hanger catches on the cassette lock ring otherwise. I put one on the other side to even things out, maybe I don't need to?

"One of the first steps I would recommend would be to try a new quick release skewer, well-lubed, and closed tightly, but not with excessive force. It should leave an imprint in your palm, and require a strong push to close, but you should not have to really strain to close it."





"First, some basic wheel work. With everything in place, grasp the wheel with one hand, and move it back and forth in the frame. Is there any play or rattling from the hub? Now take the wheel off, spin the axle, move the axle back and forth, and so on. Is there any play at the axle? Do the bearings run freely with no binding? If there is any play or the bearings are too tight, get the hub adjusted properly. Next, put the adjusted hub back on the bicycle and spin the wheel. Is the rim true or does it wobble back and forth? If the wheel does not run straight, get it trued. These two things, the hub adjustment and the rim truing, are not directly related to your problem, but since you're working on your wheel, why not do it right?"

The wheel is pretty much as new.

"Now check the following things: measure the width of the axle, from locknut to locknut (the parts that contact the frame). Second, measure the dropout spacing on the frame. Make sure the hub and the frame are the same spacing...you don't want to try to force an narrow hub into a frame with wider dropouts."

The drop outs are the same.

"Third, get the dropouts on your frame inspected and aligned if necessary."

This could be a good idea. Any ideas where I could get this done - I live in the North East.

"OK..assuming all that is fine, on to the part that is probably the most important. Inspect the surface of the locknuts on the hub. They usually have ridged or raised surfaces to bite onto the frame...are they worn down? Do they need to be replaced? Do the same with the quick release skewer: are the inside surfaces worn down, or do they look good?"

Looks good to me.



"If none of the above works, you could convert you hub to a solid axle with fixing nuts, which generally generate much more clamping force than quick releases. To do this, you would need a solid axle of the right length, fixing nuts, and so on, but it might not be so simple, because the threads on the new axle might not match the threads of your current axle, so you would run into compatibility problems with the cones...and so on.

In terms of how to get all this done...you need to find a good bicycle shop with mechanics capable and willing to perform this kind of service. At one time, things like aligning dropouts, replacing axles, and so on, were routine, but, as they say, "the times they are a' changing..." Nonetheless, a good bicycle shop with some older experienced staff should be able to help you with all of this."

Yeah that's the reason I'm on here - the three bike shops local to me mainly just sell new posh bikes and didn't really know anything about it :-P

I might try changing the lock nuts see if that helps. I'm beginning to think that the problem might be down to the drive side washer allowing that side to slip. Is it possible to get a lower profile lock ring for a 105 cassette? It needs to be about 1/2 a mm thinner.
brunoschull - on 19 Nov 2012
Hi Richard,

OK, looks like you're on the right track.

You wrote:

"I need at least one additional washer as the bolt on hanger catches on the cassette lock ring otherwise. I put one on the other side to even things out, maybe I don't need to?"

"I might try changing the lock nuts see if that helps. I'm beginning to think that the problem might be down to the drive side washer allowing that side to slip. Is it possible to get a lower profile lock ring for a 105 cassette? It needs to be about 1/2 a mm thinner."

Without seeing your bicycle, I would guess something here is your problem. As you suspect, it sounds like the right side just keeps slipping.

I am not sure of what configuration you have here...most bolt on derailuer hangers go on the outside of the dropout...is that how your bicycle is set up? If the hanger is on the inside of the dropout, you will run into problems. Maybe the hanger is on the outside, but a fixing bolt for the hanger protrudes through the dropout and hits the cassette lock ring? It is hard for me to visualize your set up. Can you sent or post a picture? I bet that would help diagnose your problem. If possible, post a picture with the current set up, clamped an closed, perhaps viewed from the back or side, so that everything is visible.

The hub locknuts quick release skewer should definitely contact the frame alone, without any washers in there...

Regarding the thinner cassette lock ring...there are many Shimano variations, and some might be a little thinner or thicker, some compatible and some not. However, I anticipate that is not how you will solve your problem.

Feel free to send me a picture if you want, or just post.

brunoschull@hotmail.com
themuppet - on 20 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter: The washers you mention for spacing, are they in between the axle locknuts and the frame or have you put them between the cones and locknuts? The locknuts need to be in contact with the frame.
Richard Carter - on 23 Nov 2012
In reply to brunoschull:

Will send you a picture in a bit
Richard Carter - on 23 Nov 2012
In reply to themuppet:

Between the lock nut and the frame, otherwise the derailleur hanger hits the lock ring and the cassette won't turn.

Will sort out a picture in a bit, luckily so far the problem hasn't resurfaced yet.
Richard Carter - on 23 Nov 2012
A side issue:

Cannot find any bolts to fit the mudguard holes annoyingly. They're not M5,and not 3/16ths. I used a M4 with a nut but that doesnt work on the rear drive side as the nut stops the chain from shifting down from the highest gear :-P

*sigh*!
themuppet - on 23 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Carter: Glad to hear your problem hasn't resurfaced, if it does I suggest you put the washers in between the locknuts and the cones. You will still have the same clearance for the cassette lock ring with the locknuts then in contact with the frame.
Richard Carter - on 23 Nov 2012
In reply to themuppet:

will do!
brunoschull - on 25 Nov 2012
Hi Richard,

I agree with what has been said above--those washers (if you need them at all) 100% need to go "behind" the locknuts, so that the raised surface of the locknuts actually contacts the frame. When you place them behind the locknuts, be sure to adjust the hub properly, because by loosening the locknuts you are changing the hub adjustment.

About the bolts for the fenders/rack...if they are close enough, simply have them tapped to the size you want...if you do it yourself, buy the correct metric tap from a hardware store, as well as some cutting oil, run the tap through slowly and carefully (make sure it's straight!) wipe off the small metal flakes and oil and...voila!

All the best--a picture would still be fun!

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