Peak District, Quality Mountain Day?

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 kilner 22 Sep 2011
I am Working towards my ML and some of my family want me to take them out walking in the peak district.

Does anyone know of a good area to go for a walk?
Here is definition of QMD............

In terms of experience, the quality of a mountain day lies in such things as the conditions experienced both overhead and underfoot, the exploration of new areas, the terrain covered and the physical and mental challenge. Such days make a positive contribution towards a person's development and maturity as an all round mountaineer.
Usually some or all of these criteria would be fulfilled:

•navigation skills are required away from marked paths.
•experience must be in terrain and weather comparable to that found in UK and Irish hills.
•the journey time is five hours or more.
•adverse conditions may be encountered.
•ascent of a substantial peak would normally be included in the day.

Anything you know of fit the bill?

Cheers
Will
 CurlyStevo 22 Sep 2011
In reply to kilner:
Kinder area certainly will
 stevev 22 Sep 2011
In reply to CurlyStevo: is kiner a mountain?

>>the journey time is five hours or more.
you would need to walk slowly on kinder to waste 5 hours

>>ascent of a substantial peak would normally be included in the day.
Get yourself to Wales
 CurlyStevo 22 Sep 2011
In reply to stevev:
"is kiner a mountain?"
dunno mate never heard of it.

Seriously though I don't believe you need to spend the whole day on the top of the peak or walking off paths to qualify.
In reply to kilner:

I asked a similar question to my ML trainer at PYB about the Brecon Beacons. His responce was that the Beacons, Dales, Peak, Dartmoor etc are more within the remit of the Walking Group Leader not the ML. You can log them but I would not have more than 20% of your logbook routes in such areas. This could be good leadership experiance but will not really develope the full skill set you need at ML.

At ML you need to be mainly logging routes in the Lakes, Snowdonia, and the Highlands. Preferably all three. Hope this helps.
XXXX 22 Sep 2011
In reply to kilner:

Remember you don't need to include all of the criteria for a QMD. Black Hill, Bleaklow, Kinder would all qualify for some, if not all of the above.

Edale - Up Chapel Gate, follow ridge over Brown Knoll, past Jacob's ladder and then find the 636 spot height on Kinder and return via one of the Cloughs.

Off paths, takes in a summit, UK hill, 5 hours+ and a peak. Perfect. But regardless, any day when you are the leader is a good log book entry.

 Banned User 77 22 Sep 2011
In reply to stevev: you don't need to be out for 5 hrs..I logged hundreds of days, some just 45 minute runs up mynydd mawr et al, it all adds to your experience base.
 Ramblin dave 22 Sep 2011
In reply to kilner:
Bleaklow is good if Kinder feels a little tame. There's a standard circuit from the Snake Inn across to Alport Dale then up the dale to Grains in the Water and then Bleaklow Head before going back down the Pennine Way and Lady Clough.

Or park at Fairholmes, get the bus (it's cheap, regular, and great) to King's Tree at the top of the reservoirs, and plan a walk that goes as far as you want into the Upper Derwent Valley before coming back over the tops - up to Outer Edge and back over the eastern ridges is good (particularly if you left the car at Ladybower rather than Fairholmes) and going up to Grinah Stones then across to Bleaklow Head and back down past Alport Castles.

I can see why you wouldn't count a ramble down Dovedale as a Quality Mountain Day, but I'm not sure what 'mountain skills' you need to bash up and down some massive National Trust motorway in the Lakes that you wouldn't need to eg get accurately from Grinah Stones to Bleaklow Head in the mist...
OP kilner 22 Sep 2011
In reply to kilner:
Thanks guys usefull stuff,
The peak is easy for everyone to get too and while i apreciate its not a typical QMD its nice to have a range of different days.

Anyone got any grid refs?
 Ramblin dave 22 Sep 2011
In reply to kilner:
> (In reply to kilner)
> Anyone got any grid refs?

Yeah, the Ordnance Survey, they've got millions.

But, er, what do you want?

Kinder Scout and Bleaklow are pretty hard to miss, the Snake Inn and the Ladybower Inn are on the main Sheffield - Manchester road (the Snake Pass) and Fairholmes is near Ladybower on the west side of the reservoir.
 Carolyn 22 Sep 2011
In reply to kilner:

Typing "Kinder Scout" into Google maps or similar ought to get you started....
 Banned User 77 22 Sep 2011
In reply to The Mountain Goat: I'm not sure I agree at all. To be honest I'd rather be anywhere in Snowdonia than in the middle of Bleaklow at 2 am on a March morning, squelching through bog..I've been out there a number of times now in the HPM and honestly, even as an ML, if our navigator left us I'd think 'oh shit'...Horrendous terrain to relocate on, if you can relocate in mist on Bleaklow you can relocate anywhere. Even teams which know the hillside well can lose 30 minutes around Bleaklow stones.
In reply to IainRUK:

I take your point in part they day will not be wasted but I stick by my case that the majority of your routes need to be in the areas I indicated. The logbook it there to give an all round idea of a candidates proficiency.

I was told this straight from the mouth of a very experianced ML assessor. If you are borderline on assessment the instructor can look at your log book. If you have 100+ Munros/Corbetts, the Welsh 3000s, and lots of Lakeland fells they are likely to give you the benefit of the doubt based on your experiance. If you have mostly Peak/Dales walking they will likely not.

 Banned User 77 22 Sep 2011
In reply to The Mountain Goat: Oh yeah you need the mountain experience for the steep terrain, exposure, weather situations. But I generally find the nav of those who live in the peak areas greater than ours in Snowdonia or the mountains as our day to day nav is generally very easy. Whereas in the peak you can often need quite complex nav, especially on the contour recognition side.

In Snowdonia its all so obvious that I never need to navigate with a map and compass, I guided a number of paddy buckley people over the glyders at 2-4 am this summer in thick cloud and darkness and never needed to use a map, the rock features are all so obvious, but in the peak the features are just so less obvious that even when you know the terrain, you still need to nav.
 Toerag 22 Sep 2011
In reply to kilner: As IainRUK said, featureless moorland is often a bigger challenge than pointy mountain stuff. I'm sure you could get enough hours in in the vicinity of Holme Moss having been Geocaching up there this summer
 Andy Say 22 Sep 2011
In reply to IainRUK:
Interesting that when the WGL was introduced there was a really high non-pass rate in the first year or so.
The suspicion is that a lot of candidates who elected to go for an 'easier' award actually found that the navigation, in particular, wasn't easier at all; just different - with a lot of subtle contour interpretation and long legs to indeterminate features rather than more 'concrete' point-to-point 'micro navigation' in fairly featured, though complex, terrain.
 Ramblin dave 22 Sep 2011
In reply to Andy Say:
I've generally found that moorland navigation was better preparation for a lot of Scottish winter nav than most of the stuff I'd done in the Lakes and Wales in summer, largely because in Wales and the Lakes there's almost always some sort of path, cairn, crag or other obvious feature not far away, whereas on moorland it's often just gently sloping bog and mist...
In reply to Ramblin dave:

Yes navigation in the Peak, and particularly Dartmoor would be good prep for ML. Nav is hovever a skill you can practice on your own which I have done on Bleaklow a number of times. I did not say the OP's idea was a bad one only that it should not constitute the bulk of a logbook.

The OP was talking about practicing his leadership skills by taking out and managing others. In my opinion this needs to be practiced on steeper, higher, and more exposed ground. This is what you will face as an ML and it is here that you are likley to encounter the challenges of leading clients perhapse on the edge of their comfort zone, doing new and challenging things.

The crux of the ML is how well you manage your group not you personal nav skills as these should be excellent and second nature.
andyathome 22 Sep 2011
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Ah - now WINTER ML navigation is a whole new topic....
OP kilner 22 Sep 2011
In reply to The Mountain Goat:

Sorry I should have been a bit clearer in my original post,

I fully understand that the peak does not fit the "traditional QMD" requirements however it is a central location for all group members to meet up.
I am very comfortable with my leadership group management and rope work skills so thats not an issue, however it will be a new venue for me and some more variation for my logbook.

Thanks for all the posts.

Slightly off topic but....

I have also found the navigation in less mountainous terrain (The Black mountains and Brecon Beacons) much harder than in Snowdonia.

More mountainous easier nav?

 Banned User 77 22 Sep 2011
In reply to kilner:
> (
>
> More mountainous easier nav?

Generally, macro nav is easier, but the cuillin ridge can be a bit of a devil to navigate on.

There's also the degree of error, on the moors 50 yards here or there isn't such a big deal but in mountainous terrain that can be the wrong ridge and much more dangerous terrain. It's just horses for courses, right techniques right time sort of thing. Much of the time in the hills you can get away with quite fuzzy nav work, its knowing when to use the fine nav which is important. I think people can get too bog down in the map and not walk around head up seeing whats around them.
 crispy 22 Sep 2011
In reply to kilner:

> More mountainous easier nav?

The nav tends to be easier on shapely mountains. Defined ridges, for example, make for easy handrailing whereas barren featureless moor like the Peaks or Dartmoor is more subtle. BUT an error in mountainous terrain can have very serious consequnces such as getting onto steep ground, cragfast etc. whereas errors on open moor may mean wet feet, cold and miserable but generally not too serious, just aimlessly lost! Having said that, this situtaion could rapidly deteriorate to hypothermia etc.

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