UKH

A question for people who know about houses... we're looking at buying for the first time at the moment, and among the family houses that we've seen, it generally seems to be the case that every terraced house has had the loft converted to give an extra bedroom or two, but almost none of the semis have. Is there a reason for this? If we were looking to buy a standard 1940s 2.5 bed semi with a view to turning into 3.5 beds at some point in the future by converting the loft, is there anything that we'd have to look out for?

Cheers!

Whilst I'm in no way a property expert, turning a 2.5 bed semi into a 3 bed seems logical; you lose 0.5 of a bedroom because you have to put stairs somewhere.

That said, I'm not you and houses can vary so wildly that many things are possible.

Also, having two loos in a house is something you don't want to give up once you've experienced it.

T.

I live in a semi and the roof isn't high/steep enough for there to be enough headroom in the attic for it to be converted into a bedroom

A key point

Also semis tend to have more complex roof structures that aren't as straightforward to change. But each house is different.

Perhaps note the hardest to change are modern "trussed rafter" roofs, (almost everything post 1970s) even though there is often masses of volume 

It really depends on dimensions whether it is possible or if you have to sacrifice all or part of a room. Our 1920s semi was converted from hip to gable and without losing a bedroom/bathroom for the stairs but it was very borderline acceptable with regards to building control.

Okay, thanks all, that's really useful. It sounds like it's something you'd want to look into carefully if at all.

Where is your chimney? Lots goes up through the centre of the house so occupies quite a bit of roof space. No idea on the roof struts in terraces, but again ours (1950s) would need a total redesign to maximise space. Most terraces have two sloped sides to the roof vertical at either end, having three sloped sides reduces head height making the useable room space much smaller.

I suspect many of the local terraces were converted before modern building regs, so less worried about head height or width or staircases. Existing conversions (I believe) don't need to comply to modern standards, but any new conversion would.

However all that said, I agree with Tony that giving up the boxroom (tiny single bedroom) to create space for a staircase to a spacious double does make a lot of sense.

Most semis with roof conversions seem to have had a complete roof redesign installing full length dormer "windows" on two sides to give maximum space, totally changing the exterior appearance of the building. 

I guess that depends on if you want it classed as a bedroom. We’re doing ours at the moment (mid terrace) and have gone for building regs spec, but we know it will be touch and go as to whether the room height meets the regs to actually get it signed off.

However, we will get a very useable room either way. Just a risk that it might be classed as an “occasional room” for any future sales.

I suspect the slightly steeper and much simpler roofs of terraces and the typical simple straight staircase and landing layout lends itself to a cheap easy loft conversion. Also, most terraces will be 100+ years old with purlin and rafter roofs in light timbers due to their modest spans, again these cause few issues especially if only adding rooflights or small light dormers. And with a smaller initial building comes more imperative to create more space given typical family sizes. Many were also done years ago without much oversight and with features that wouldn't fly today, particularly the stairs and insulation.

I know with mine (technically a 20's end terrace but effectively a semi) there is no neat way to do a second staircase without losing or significantly degrading existing rooms and the one it would make sense to lose/move would be the bathroom which adds a  big cost. I'd probably also have to lower the already not too high ceiling upstairs to make space for modern insulation and to gain enough space to properly justify the disruption. To add a dormer (which actually added floorspace) would require a full re-engineering of the roof to delete the huge timber purlins in the way of doing a really good job. It's doable but a huge project to do it well.

That said, very similar looking houses differ in their details and layout quite a bit and it's the details which really help or hinder these things.

jk

Height / headroom.  Place for new stairs.  Roof shape.

We added a loft conversion to our 1930s semi-detached (in S7) a couple of years ago.  Removed entire roof structure.  Went from hipped to gable roof shape.  New stairs.  Turned loft into a massive bedroom with pitched dormer and en-suite bathroom.  The first thing that the builder commented on was the height available in the loft space before we started the work.  Luckily, we had a lot of headroom - but it was consumed by the addition of 3 large RSJs and masses of insulation.  Big job, not cheap, but absolutely delighted to have completed the work - it's made a massive positive difference to our home.

Apart from trusses, chimneys etc mentioned there are fire regulations, there needs to be a protected route down all stairs top to bottom leading to an external door, which means firedoors on all doors leading onto the stairs. So if the ground floor is open plan, kitchen etc and the stairs are open, you'll be very unlikely to get permission. 

Good points!  We had to have fire doors fitted to all 'living' rooms (bedrooms, kitchen, lounge), plus mains-wired smoke alarms, and a heat alarm in the kitchen - all to get Building Control sign-off.  No 'permission' required though - seems bizarre to me but it was classed as a 'minor' work as it didn't change the footprint of the house, hence no planning permissions required for us.

I've recently finished converting our semi-detached loft into comfortable storage that just happens to have a sofa bed up there. Not sure how that got there.

We looked into getting it done properly, but by the time you loose the box room, upgrade the ceiling, rebuild the roof to get the levels of insulation needed, you could easily be £35k in, and go from a three bed semi with a box room, to a three bed semi with normal size rooms.

This seemed like very bad value to me.

Instead, for about £2k (all diy) I have what is effectively a four bedroom house with the loft accessible by a fold down ladder. It is insulated, but bare minimum to make it comfortable. 

It's a 1950's ex council semi so the timber work was all very simple.

Which sounds like a bargain until something goes wrong. 

Or solicitors start asking questions when you come to sell...

We aren't actually looking at anywhere specific yet, just doing Rightmove / viewings. But having potential to extend if we want more space in a few years is a nice thing to have in the back pocket, and while it's normally obvious if a place has potential to stick an extension at the side or above / instead of the garage (and if every third house on the street has done exactly that), it's harder to guess exactly what you'd be able to do with the loft....

Anyway, thanks again for the replies, it's been useful.

I said lots, but actually I think ours is quite unusual in having the chimney opposite the windows rather than on the dividing wall with the neighbours.

Whatever you buy, ask to look up through the roof hatch. Is it boarded (even just DIY for basic storage) and are there lights, any insulation, and of course signs of damp. Also gives a feel for the size of the internal space and a brief insight as to how much rebuilding you would need to open it up.

It's all just superficial modifications. 

Not if you allow someone sleep up there. You've just publically acknowledged you know you’ve breached regulations. 

I'm not sure that's correct. I doubt there is a law against sleeping in a loft.

More, as I said early until something goes wrong. 

If it's only "superficial" then there is no problem. Structural alterations may cause problems but worst case it's a fine and cost of reinstatement (more likely a hassle when selling). After all, you even kill a 100+ people with a crappy burning building .and nothing much happens.

Although "superficial" seems subjective, even when the room does't meet building regulations for a bedroom, and gives insurance companies a route not to avoid paying out.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/article-5550933/Our-house-burnt-insurer...

I'm a bit surprised the Ombudsman report said

"Taking a common sense approach, I think most people would consider  upstairs rooms within a house bedrooms"

"I don't think that whether a room has been signed off as a building regulation compliant bedroom is relevant"

That seems a very inhelpful repsonse from the ombudsmans. Next question is what is an "upstairs room"!?

You don't need building regulations to board up an attic.

We did fit a velux and invited the council round to sign it off.

None of the other work required it.

I could sleep in my garage. It doesn't mean it's a habital space and requires building regs. If it was that stringent it would make selling tents difficult.

The regs are because of the distance to exit the building in a fire and the fact your exit isn't protected. A fire in any room would be well established before you're alerted in the loft, hence the need for connected fire detectors and doors. Converting a loft for storage etc.. isn't the same as a living space / bedroom. The additional risk is people doing their own works with sub standard wiring etc..

https://www.fmb.org.uk/find-a-builder/ultimate-guides-to-home-renovation/lo...

The issue in this case appears to be they went the whole hog to make it habital. It was heated and presumably had a permanent access.

I can't imagine a room accessible by a trap door could be considered a bedroom. But it's a worthy note to just inform insurance companies regardless.

They didn't do the conversion, they negotiated a reduction in the asking price, due to those rooms not being certified habitable? 

Neither can I, but given the above story I'm not as confident as I was. 

I'll be talking to one of my brothers this weekend. The conversation was done when he bought the house, but due to the height I'm pretty sure it can't be classed as habitable. On the other side it's accessed by fixed stairs and has a sofa bed, seems like the worst of both worlds?

On a related note the rules on insurance do need to change. For ambiguous areas (which a boarded up attic clearly is, since your council wouldn't call it a bedroom but the insurance company may do) the payout should be proportional to the impact it would have on the premiums.

If not disclosing it meant you only paid 90% of the premium then you should get 90% of the payout.

I think this fairly protects both the insurance company from people lying (as they won't be fully covered) and the customer from the risk of zero payout.

I'm sure most people in older houses have a few traps that could prevent a payout and disclosing them (if you knew to) probably wouldn't impact premium price. 

“but due to the height I'm pretty sure it can't be classed as habitable”

There is no minimum height for a habitable room specified in the Building Regulations. As was confirmed to me by a Building Inspector recently. “You are correct in your assumptions, with a private house, the only headroom rules relate to over the stairs and landings areas and elsewhere there is no control.”

Consistency amongst what different Building Inspectors will or will not sign off, is another can or worms. 

Do you know how it works with height over the stairs? I.e. is it height in centre of stairs, does the top step (which would be the bedroom floor) count?

We are going to have something like the below photo. Architect and builder think we will be fine but I’ve not got a proper understanding of the rules myself.

At the apex we will have enough height, but as the roof slopes we wouldn’t have enough height all the way across the stairs…

This is the relevant section of part K of the Building Regulations: “For loft conversions, the headroom can be a minimum of 1.8metres at the low-ceiling side of the stairs and a minimum of 1.9metres in the centre of the staircase width”.

Thanks!